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zubin damanya is an american physician

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an assistant professor

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a comedian and was the practicing

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hospitalist at stanford university

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school of medicine

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for 10 years he also runs z-dog md which

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is a youtube channel dedicated to

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exploring similar themes to this channel

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so if you like these podcasts there's a

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great chance that you'll like his so

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check out the link in the description

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the main point of convergence between us

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is consciousness it's because of this

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that zubin interviewed me live on his

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channel but the conversation was so

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engrossing despite my

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lastitude initially that i'm placing it

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here

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for those of you interested in

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non-dualism meditation even fasting

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for those new to this channel my name is

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kurt jaimungle i'm a filmmaker with a

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background in mathematical physics

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dedicated to the explication of what are

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called theories of everything

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from a theoretical physics perspective

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as well as the possible connection

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consciousness has

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to the fundamental laws of the universe

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provided these laws exist at all and are

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knowable to us

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if you're interested in getting

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acquainted with this channel there's a

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top 10 list

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of carefully curated videos in the

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description it includes podcasts with

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bernardo castro donald hoffman

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ian mcgillcrist yoshibok and karl

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fristen

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more of course links are in the

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description again if you'd like to hear

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more conversations like this

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for example soon i'll be speaking to leo

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gura and even daniel schmottenberger

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then please do consider going to

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patreon.com

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kurtjmungle and supporting it may sound

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silly but literally every dollar helps

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tremendously and it's wonderful

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sometimes i receive letters saying

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hey kurt this is just so that you don't

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have to work so hard and perhaps you can

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spend more time with your wife

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because often i seclude my wife to a

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room while i'm recording and i'm often

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thinking about work so much that it

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intrudes on our private time where i'm

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not as present as i could be

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there are a couple sponsors of today's

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podcast algo is an end-to-end supply

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chain optimization software company

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with software that helps business users

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optimize sales and operations

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planning to avoid stock outs reduce

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returns and inventory write-downs

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while reducing inventory investment it's

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a supply chain ai that drives smart roi

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headed by a bright individual by the

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name of amjad hussein who has been a

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huge supporter of this podcast

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from its early days the second sponsor

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is brilliant

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brilliant illuminates the soul of

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mathematics science and engineering with

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bite-sized interactive learning

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experiences

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brilliance courses explore the laws that

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shape our world elevating math and

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science from something to be feared

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to a delightful experience of guided

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discovery more on them

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later thank you and enjoy

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first meeting is being recorded um

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and anything off limits in what we talk

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about

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i'd say we just shoot the [\h__\h] were you

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okay with thumbnail and title and

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everything

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i'm fine with it all man i'm fine with

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it and then

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i'll just give you the footage and you

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can do whatever you like with it put it

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out

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or not if you think it sucks whatever

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you think makes sense

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yeah and are you going to leave this

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live stream up once it's done

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yeah yeah uh

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and and that way you have the kind of

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raw thing that's shitty and then we have

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the

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one of us puts out

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uh yeah and again just you just said and

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the way i was thinking is like we're

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talking to each other

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so exactly this is just conversation no

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one's interviewing

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the other i'm all exactly we can talk

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about this i'm a horrible interviewee

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trust me

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hey believe me so am i so so it'll be a

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conversation

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um let me do one thing here so what i

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was thinking for the live and you can

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tell me what your aesthetic is

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by the way i watched your whole [\h__\h]

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documentary the two hour one

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oh man holy [\h__\h] hats off to you it's

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experimental

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yeah oh [\h__\h] yeah it's off the rails

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like

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it's really [\h__\h] intense and crazy

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and awesome and

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you said one thing well we should save

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it for the show so um

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uh um what i was thinking is i'll set it

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to

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speaker mode so that whoever's talking

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gets full screen

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just because the 69 side by side is a

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little

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jankety for the live i think at some

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point i can put a side by side just to

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mix it up but

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i don't know what do you think just be

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in the moment it's fine leave it as

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the i think it's called the speaker view

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yeah speaker view yeah that's perfect

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that way it'll just go back and forth

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between us for the for the live and then

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obviously you can do anything we like

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for the

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replay um all right so we have all of

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this

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we're recording so you're recording your

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audio as well

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oh yeah it's all on the same uh track

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it's it's embedded in the video track

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but i can always break it out

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uh but you can break it out as well i'll

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just share it by dropbox with you

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great um now let me think if there's

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anything else okay now

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so the only other tricky thing i do this

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all myself so it gets a little

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uh so we're going live to youtube and

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facebook i've got it all teed up and i'm

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going to share it on locals as well

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so let me do a few clicks here and then

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we'll just go live what do you think

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yes go ahead i'm going to let you

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introduce yourself if that's okay

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because that'll just be the best

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yeah yeah all right so

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all right theories of everything live

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oh viewers are waiting look at that uh

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how do i make this work i gotta go to

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caster i gotta turn on

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this that's how we simulcast is using a

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company called caster

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the cheap solution to simulcast there we

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go so we're connecting to facebook live

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perfect let me make sure facebook live

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is work it is

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all right and then i'm going to go live

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in a couple clicks here so here we go

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facebook and let's see how this works

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guys

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uh give it a second and we'll see if

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we're live

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it looks like we is on

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facebook and youtube give me a second

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here guys

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welcome to the show it's the z dog and

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kurt show today

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kurt jeiman gal welcome brother thank

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you so much for having me on man

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i'm extremely glad to be here dude

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this is a conversation i've been so

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excited to have so

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from parts of my audience that don't

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know who kurt is

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uh i watch his videos on youtube because

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he interviews the kind of people that i

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deeply care about hearing from and he

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goes so deep i'm talking like the donald

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hoffman's bernardo castro

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talking to rupert spyra which was a

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ridiculous like three or four hour

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conversation and i watched all of it

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and was just like this the whole time

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kurt is a documentary filmmaker

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and just a hey can you tell me a little

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bit about yourself brother

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yeah i'm a i'm a filmmaker first and

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foremost

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with a background in math and physics

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and i've always been interested in what

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are called theories of everything

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which is a somewhat technical physics

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term though it's now in common parlance

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and it

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usually in the physical sciences means

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the unification of gravity with

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the standard model as well as an ex

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explanation for other

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phenomena such as what is going on

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inside of a black hole which you think

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would be answered by

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a quantum theory of gravity but not

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necessarily what

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is the beginning of the universe there's

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differences as to what a theory of

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everything

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constitutes it doesn't matter you get

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the va you get the overview

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as for what i do with the channel as i

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explore those

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because i've always been interested in

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theories of everything and luckily i

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have some

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background so i can

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do so with a certain level of depth and

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i like to

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question as deep as i possibly can the

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guests that i speak to so

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some of them have been they range from

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theoretical physicists to people who are

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espousers of the idea that consciousness

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is primary

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i explore theoretical physics free will

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consciousness and god

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oh my god okay that sounds like woo but

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it depends on what the definition is

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do you guys see why i love him like

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like in a like want to marry him kind of

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way so this these are exactly the same

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things i'm interested in and

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what's interesting kurt is like you know

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i didn't have the physics and math

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background that you have

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um and i'm certainly not a documentary

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filmmaker and

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yeah but oh damn it hold on let me turn

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up that noise

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uh and i'm also if don't be put off but

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the fact that i'm staring down at the

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laptop

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occasionally off at you and at the

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camera because well i'm looking at

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people's

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comments too i'm impressed that you're

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you've set up your camera such that

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the ice the eye line is aligned with the

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with me

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so it looks like you're looking at me

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whereas me i'm pointed downward

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because well you know it's wonderful

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it's one of those things that i've had

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to i've had to work on for a long time

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trying to figure it out what's weird is

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it's very it's actually off-putting to

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people on zoom who are used to zoom

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culture

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where it's kind of like hey kurt how's

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it going uh

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yeah things are good right and then

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suddenly you're getting this weird

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amounts of eye contact with

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a background that isn't a um fake green

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screen zoom background and people are

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just

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they're a little unnerved actually this

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is something i wanted to ask you about

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because

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we can talk about the theories of

287
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everything stuff which is important this

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idea of um

289
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is there unifying structure and and

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conceptual framework that we can

291
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understand everything with or is it a

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infinite regress and that kind of thing

293
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but but you know

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even before that what's interesting is

295
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you know in this since the pandemic

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started

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this medium that we use has just

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exponentially blown up

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is is that did you see your channel

300
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really getting more engagement

301
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post pandemic i it was started post

302
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pandemic so

303
00:09:40,710 --> 00:09:38,880
it was started during the pandemic we're

304
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not posted but yes

305
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there's a huge craving for discussions

306
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that are

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about the fundamental nature of reality

308
00:09:49,829 --> 00:09:48,240
and perhaps that's because people are

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philosophically destabilized they're in

310
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them in a

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mentally insecure place and i know i am

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00:10:01,030 --> 00:09:58,480
lubricus lubricus ground with regard to

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belief at least for me

314
00:10:05,110 --> 00:10:03,200
it's variable in a straddle and so

315
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people are perhaps looking for certainty

316
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and that's why they

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come to these channels though if you're

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looking for any answers i

319
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i assure you i have virtually none in

320
00:10:18,949 --> 00:10:14,720
the answer to almost any question that

321
00:10:21,430 --> 00:10:18,959
zubin poses to me will be met with a

322
00:10:24,949 --> 00:10:21,440
a dubious i don't know like i'm dubious

323
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that that dubiousness about our own

324
00:10:30,870 --> 00:10:28,720
dubiousness is this kind of meta

325
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awareness or

326
00:10:34,230 --> 00:10:32,560
it's it's the fundamental belief about

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belief that everything

328
00:10:37,509 --> 00:10:36,240
needs to be kind of questioned even our

329
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dearest held

330
00:10:41,430 --> 00:10:39,600
deepest and most hidden beliefs actually

331
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i think to drew

332
00:10:44,470 --> 00:10:43,680
into them and go okay but what if this

333
00:10:46,550 --> 00:10:44,480
was not true

334
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and actually what's present now in my

335
00:10:51,350 --> 00:10:48,800
experience in what i can actually

336
00:10:51,910 --> 00:10:51,360
detect now that that supports or refutes

337
00:10:54,470 --> 00:10:51,920
this

338
00:10:55,829 --> 00:10:54,480
belief even it may be a simple belief

339
00:10:57,829 --> 00:10:55,839
like you know this

340
00:10:59,430 --> 00:10:57,839
piece of z-dog md signs the crap out of

341
00:11:00,949 --> 00:10:59,440
it merchandise which

342
00:11:02,630 --> 00:11:00,959
i would feel like i'm shilling but we

343
00:11:05,190 --> 00:11:02,640
don't sell it anymore uh

344
00:11:07,030 --> 00:11:05,200
is separate from from me in some ways a

345
00:11:08,550 --> 00:11:07,040
separate object in space and time that

346
00:11:09,350 --> 00:11:08,560
space and time are real and these kind

347
00:11:11,110 --> 00:11:09,360
of things and

348
00:11:13,670 --> 00:11:11,120
actually the more you start to examine

349
00:11:17,590 --> 00:11:13,680
those beliefs and actually

350
00:11:20,550 --> 00:11:17,600
use the immediate experience the sensory

351
00:11:22,470 --> 00:11:20,560
experience of this moment as a guide you

352
00:11:24,470 --> 00:11:22,480
really start to destabilize

353
00:11:25,350 --> 00:11:24,480
some of those beliefs that and and

354
00:11:26,630 --> 00:11:25,360
bringing it back to what you were

355
00:11:28,630 --> 00:11:26,640
talking about with the pandemic i found

356
00:11:31,750 --> 00:11:28,640
the same thing i think people are

357
00:11:35,030 --> 00:11:31,760
really fundamentally shook

358
00:11:37,750 --> 00:11:35,040
by the fact that society is nothing

359
00:11:38,389 --> 00:11:37,760
as nothing as stable as they thought it

360
00:11:40,310 --> 00:11:38,399
was

361
00:11:41,990 --> 00:11:40,320
that we're actually in an incredibly

362
00:11:42,630 --> 00:11:42,000
fragile interconnected world that it

363
00:11:44,550 --> 00:11:42,640
just

364
00:11:45,910 --> 00:11:44,560
you know a blockage in the suez canal

365
00:11:47,910 --> 00:11:45,920
ripples out and causes

366
00:11:49,269 --> 00:11:47,920
my inability to wipe my ass with toilet

367
00:11:51,829 --> 00:11:49,279
paper which

368
00:11:53,190 --> 00:11:51,839
apparently is a near and dear need for

369
00:11:55,350 --> 00:11:53,200
the western person

370
00:11:56,710 --> 00:11:55,360
so much so that they hoard it when the

371
00:11:59,030 --> 00:11:56,720
pandemic starts

372
00:12:00,710 --> 00:11:59,040
so this destabilization i think has

373
00:12:02,150 --> 00:12:00,720
forced some degree of introspection

374
00:12:04,069 --> 00:12:02,160
that's been a long time coming

375
00:12:05,990 --> 00:12:04,079
have you found the same thing in your

376
00:12:10,150 --> 00:12:06,000
extensive pandemic travels

377
00:12:10,949 --> 00:12:10,160
online yeah and conversely you just

378
00:12:12,870 --> 00:12:10,959
mentioned

379
00:12:14,069 --> 00:12:12,880
a disadvantage because you're connected

380
00:12:16,310 --> 00:12:14,079
to what's

381
00:12:21,190 --> 00:12:16,320
extremely outside you or seemingly so

382
00:12:24,710 --> 00:12:22,710
it's also inspirational in a sense

383
00:12:26,230 --> 00:12:24,720
because it means that your

384
00:12:28,150 --> 00:12:26,240
loving nature to the degree that you

385
00:12:31,590 --> 00:12:28,160
express it and your

386
00:12:32,870 --> 00:12:31,600
truth-telling ability or at least

387
00:12:35,190 --> 00:12:32,880
i would say it's more important to not

388
00:12:37,190 --> 00:12:35,200
lie peterson has this

389
00:12:38,710 --> 00:12:37,200
rule about tell the truth or at least

390
00:12:39,829 --> 00:12:38,720
not lie i would flip that and say don't

391
00:12:41,110 --> 00:12:39,839
lie

392
00:12:42,949 --> 00:12:41,120
instead of not tell that instead of

393
00:12:45,430 --> 00:12:42,959
telling the truth because it's extremely

394
00:12:46,870 --> 00:12:45,440
easy to delude yourself into thinking

395
00:12:49,670 --> 00:12:46,880
what you're doing is truth telling when

396
00:12:55,829 --> 00:12:52,790
well you're you're trying to

397
00:12:57,190 --> 00:12:55,839
win an intellectual battle or show how

398
00:12:59,030 --> 00:12:57,200
truth-telling you are by saying to

399
00:13:01,829 --> 00:12:59,040
someone a mean comment

400
00:13:03,590 --> 00:13:01,839
well either way that your ability to

401
00:13:04,790 --> 00:13:03,600
that your loving nature can spread far

402
00:13:05,350 --> 00:13:04,800
beyond you in the same way that

403
00:13:07,990 --> 00:13:05,360
something

404
00:13:08,470 --> 00:13:08,000
malicious can spread to you so it's a

405
00:13:12,710 --> 00:13:08,480
twin

406
00:13:16,310 --> 00:13:12,720
of both inspiration and horror

407
00:13:18,550 --> 00:13:16,320
this idea of not lying

408
00:13:20,230 --> 00:13:18,560
is something that i find really

409
00:13:21,910 --> 00:13:20,240
interesting and of course sam harris

410
00:13:24,710 --> 00:13:21,920
wrote his book called lying about

411
00:13:25,829 --> 00:13:24,720
exactly this idea that there are this

412
00:13:27,670 --> 00:13:25,839
there's a group of people that are

413
00:13:29,750 --> 00:13:27,680
radical truth tellers you know they they

414
00:13:30,310 --> 00:13:29,760
just will not they'll focus on not lying

415
00:13:32,230 --> 00:13:30,320
and

416
00:13:33,590 --> 00:13:32,240
what you mentioned about this idea of

417
00:13:35,990 --> 00:13:33,600
love this idea of

418
00:13:36,870 --> 00:13:36,000
a way of doing that compassionately i

419
00:13:39,430 --> 00:13:36,880
think is key

420
00:13:41,350 --> 00:13:39,440
because it's very easy to say okay you

421
00:13:43,829 --> 00:13:41,360
know we use white lies to grease

422
00:13:45,750 --> 00:13:43,839
so social situations to not hurt

423
00:13:48,629 --> 00:13:45,760
somebody's feelings and so on and

424
00:13:49,590 --> 00:13:48,639
and i think not telling all the truth is

425
00:13:53,030 --> 00:13:49,600
a very different

426
00:13:53,350 --> 00:13:53,040
sort of moral equivalent to telling a

427
00:13:55,990 --> 00:13:53,360
say

428
00:13:57,590 --> 00:13:56,000
telling an active lie to cover up

429
00:13:59,350 --> 00:13:57,600
something that is true

430
00:14:01,430 --> 00:13:59,360
um and actually in your in your

431
00:14:02,710 --> 00:14:01,440
documentary which i i want to shout out

432
00:14:05,670 --> 00:14:02,720
early on because it's

433
00:14:06,790 --> 00:14:05,680
so crazy and experimental and awesome

434
00:14:07,990 --> 00:14:06,800
the people who are into this should

435
00:14:09,430 --> 00:14:08,000
check it out and i put a link in the

436
00:14:12,230 --> 00:14:09,440
description it's better left

437
00:14:13,509 --> 00:14:12,240
unsaid i believe you even said you know

438
00:14:14,389 --> 00:14:13,519
you use that you had a quote where you

439
00:14:17,670 --> 00:14:14,399
said you

440
00:14:20,550 --> 00:14:17,680
you ask people for advice

441
00:14:22,230 --> 00:14:20,560
when you know the answer right but the

442
00:14:24,389 --> 00:14:22,240
answer is too painful

443
00:14:25,430 --> 00:14:24,399
to actually accept so you ask someone

444
00:14:26,870 --> 00:14:25,440
for advice that they'll they'll

445
00:14:29,269 --> 00:14:26,880
hopefully tell you something different

446
00:14:30,790 --> 00:14:29,279
or a white lie or something right

447
00:14:32,150 --> 00:14:30,800
right i think that's emily jong although

448
00:14:33,829 --> 00:14:32,160
i could be mispronouncing the name i

449
00:14:35,910 --> 00:14:33,839
think you should remember

450
00:14:37,350 --> 00:14:35,920
she had this quote that the only reason

451
00:14:38,069 --> 00:14:37,360
you ask for advice is because you know

452
00:14:40,389 --> 00:14:38,079
the answer

453
00:14:41,750 --> 00:14:40,399
and you don't want to accept it so for

454
00:14:43,509 --> 00:14:41,760
example some people will go to other

455
00:14:44,470 --> 00:14:43,519
people for relationship advice hoping

456
00:14:45,829 --> 00:14:44,480
that what they're hearing is

457
00:14:49,590 --> 00:14:45,839
you should stay with that person when

458
00:14:53,430 --> 00:14:50,949
what's your what's your take on

459
00:14:56,629 --> 00:14:53,440
self-deception because

460
00:14:58,949 --> 00:14:56,639
i think that we i think one of the

461
00:15:00,470 --> 00:14:58,959
you know you you actually ended the

462
00:15:01,990 --> 00:15:00,480
documentary with a beautiful

463
00:15:03,590 --> 00:15:02,000
quote which i won't i won't give away

464
00:15:05,430 --> 00:15:03,600
but

465
00:15:06,710 --> 00:15:05,440
i think one of the fundamental problems

466
00:15:08,629 --> 00:15:06,720
of our time

467
00:15:10,389 --> 00:15:08,639
if we're going to emerge new systems

468
00:15:12,150 --> 00:15:10,399
that are going to transform say let's

469
00:15:12,790 --> 00:15:12,160
even just stick with my specialty health

470
00:15:16,470 --> 00:15:12,800
care

471
00:15:17,189 --> 00:15:16,480
we better [\h__\h] transform ourselves

472
00:15:20,389 --> 00:15:17,199
first

473
00:15:23,189 --> 00:15:20,399
which means the self-deception the

474
00:15:25,829 --> 00:15:23,199
lies we tell ourselves about ourselves

475
00:15:28,470 --> 00:15:25,839
the hidden beliefs that we hold about

476
00:15:30,230 --> 00:15:28,480
ourselves for example if we hold the

477
00:15:32,069 --> 00:15:30,240
belief i'm a good person

478
00:15:33,670 --> 00:15:32,079
right now it seems on the surface like a

479
00:15:35,509 --> 00:15:33,680
wonderful belief

480
00:15:37,030 --> 00:15:35,519
but when something when we do something

481
00:15:39,350 --> 00:15:37,040
or think something

482
00:15:40,790 --> 00:15:39,360
you know the thought arises something

483
00:15:42,790 --> 00:15:40,800
that isn't nice

484
00:15:44,310 --> 00:15:42,800
or we accidentally or purposefully do

485
00:15:46,150 --> 00:15:44,320
something that's clearly

486
00:15:47,430 --> 00:15:46,160
not in the best interest of someone else

487
00:15:49,829 --> 00:15:47,440
and that

488
00:15:50,870 --> 00:15:49,839
dissonance then generates a kind of

489
00:15:54,230 --> 00:15:50,880
tension that

490
00:15:56,470 --> 00:15:54,240
causes a weird kind of dysfunction

491
00:15:57,269 --> 00:15:56,480
that actually projects outwards and i

492
00:15:59,509 --> 00:15:57,279
think our

493
00:16:01,590 --> 00:15:59,519
systems of human you know our human

494
00:16:02,790 --> 00:16:01,600
systems are actually epiphenomenon of

495
00:16:06,389 --> 00:16:02,800
our internal states and

496
00:16:07,749 --> 00:16:06,399
until we can turn that lens inward

497
00:16:09,030 --> 00:16:07,759
we're never going to solve these

498
00:16:10,230 --> 00:16:09,040
external problems we're just going to

499
00:16:12,230 --> 00:16:10,240
continue to

500
00:16:14,230 --> 00:16:12,240
dysfunction out outwardly have you

501
00:16:19,430 --> 00:16:14,240
thought quite a bit about this

502
00:16:25,749 --> 00:16:23,590
extreme self-flagellation and

503
00:16:26,870 --> 00:16:25,759
mortification self-mortification even to

504
00:16:28,230 --> 00:16:26,880
say that any

505
00:16:30,629 --> 00:16:28,240
anytime you think you're doing at least

506
00:16:34,069 --> 00:16:30,639
for me anytime i think i'm a good

507
00:16:36,230 --> 00:16:34,079
person oh i find

508
00:16:38,310 --> 00:16:36,240
via examination that what i was doing

509
00:16:41,749 --> 00:16:38,320
was cowardice

510
00:16:45,590 --> 00:16:41,759
masquerading as something good or or

511
00:16:48,230 --> 00:16:45,600
maliciousness or rancor

512
00:16:49,590 --> 00:16:48,240
so i'm extremely hesitant to say that

513
00:16:51,749 --> 00:16:49,600
anything i'm doing is good

514
00:16:53,110 --> 00:16:51,759
i'm just trying to minimize the bad or

515
00:16:57,189 --> 00:16:53,120
at least i'm trying to

516
00:17:01,749 --> 00:16:58,310
yeah i think that really involves

517
00:17:04,549 --> 00:17:01,759
examining belief who am i

518
00:17:06,230 --> 00:17:04,559
you know even that even that is a series

519
00:17:07,350 --> 00:17:06,240
of nested beliefs that we hold in our

520
00:17:10,069 --> 00:17:07,360
condition from

521
00:17:12,150 --> 00:17:10,079
very young ages and are influenced by

522
00:17:14,150 --> 00:17:12,160
everything around us and our genetics

523
00:17:15,029 --> 00:17:14,160
right i'm not a big blank slate kind of

524
00:17:18,150 --> 00:17:15,039
guy i think

525
00:17:21,029 --> 00:17:18,160
a lot of who we are is passed on

526
00:17:22,630 --> 00:17:21,039
uh genetically and otherwise and then

527
00:17:23,590 --> 00:17:22,640
there's a component of environment but

528
00:17:25,829 --> 00:17:23,600
really i i

529
00:17:26,789 --> 00:17:25,839
i'm with pinker a little bit uh stephen

530
00:17:29,350 --> 00:17:26,799
pinker on

531
00:17:30,150 --> 00:17:29,360
this idea that we really are handed this

532
00:17:31,590 --> 00:17:30,160
kind of

533
00:17:33,909 --> 00:17:31,600
you know i'm going to use a loaded term

534
00:17:35,990 --> 00:17:33,919
this karma not in a religious sense but

535
00:17:39,029 --> 00:17:36,000
in the causes and conditions

536
00:17:41,190 --> 00:17:39,039
that led to us and to some extent

537
00:17:42,870 --> 00:17:41,200
there is a radical self-acceptance that

538
00:17:44,470 --> 00:17:42,880
comes when you realize that you are as

539
00:17:47,110 --> 00:17:44,480
you are and cannot be other

540
00:17:48,630 --> 00:17:47,120
which means just that knowledge may

541
00:17:50,630 --> 00:17:48,640
allow you a kind of freedom and

542
00:17:54,390 --> 00:17:50,640
flexibility to be

543
00:17:55,830 --> 00:17:54,400
better than you were but it it involves

544
00:17:59,190 --> 00:17:55,840
actually accepting who you are instead

545
00:18:01,510 --> 00:17:59,200
of constantly putting up obfuscation and

546
00:18:03,029 --> 00:18:01,520
hiding from it and as a public person

547
00:18:05,750 --> 00:18:03,039
and you are too and you've

548
00:18:06,390 --> 00:18:05,760
your rise has been meteoric when i watch

549
00:18:07,669 --> 00:18:06,400
your stuff

550
00:18:10,310 --> 00:18:07,679
and actually this is something i should

551
00:18:11,909 --> 00:18:10,320
i should say quick early on

552
00:18:13,990 --> 00:18:11,919
when i saw your interview with hoffman

553
00:18:16,310 --> 00:18:14,000
and castro now these are a couple of my

554
00:18:17,110 --> 00:18:16,320
like the people that i i've interviewed

555
00:18:20,150 --> 00:18:17,120
and

556
00:18:23,669 --> 00:18:20,160
like god damn

557
00:18:26,710 --> 00:18:23,679
like this this guy's like a kid

558
00:18:29,830 --> 00:18:26,720
he's vastly smarter incredibly handsome

559
00:18:31,990 --> 00:18:29,840
and is asking these tremendously

560
00:18:33,190 --> 00:18:32,000
nuanced questions and had these guys

561
00:18:34,870 --> 00:18:33,200
attention and

562
00:18:37,029 --> 00:18:34,880
and the audience attention for like

563
00:18:40,390 --> 00:18:37,039
three hours of conversation

564
00:18:43,510 --> 00:18:40,400
and my immediate response was rage

565
00:18:45,430 --> 00:18:43,520
unworthiness jealousy anger

566
00:18:47,430 --> 00:18:45,440
like all that just bubbles up i'm like

567
00:18:50,630 --> 00:18:47,440
god i want to this guy needs to

568
00:18:52,070 --> 00:18:50,640
fail right but but but the but the cool

569
00:18:53,669 --> 00:18:52,080
thing i was proud of myself also it

570
00:18:56,710 --> 00:18:53,679
warms my heart that's the malicious part

571
00:19:03,190 --> 00:18:56,720
of me

572
00:19:05,029 --> 00:19:03,200
is more meta-aware now from eight years

573
00:19:06,230 --> 00:19:05,039
of being on a path of meditation and

574
00:19:07,190 --> 00:19:06,240
that kind of thing was like oh look at

575
00:19:09,510 --> 00:19:07,200
that

576
00:19:10,950 --> 00:19:09,520
what's going on there like what part of

577
00:19:13,190 --> 00:19:10,960
your ego is really

578
00:19:14,310 --> 00:19:13,200
is has a sense of unworthiness or the

579
00:19:16,070 --> 00:19:14,320
sense of like

580
00:19:18,070 --> 00:19:16,080
you're never good enough and so on and

581
00:19:19,830 --> 00:19:18,080
so forth and by examining that

582
00:19:22,310 --> 00:19:19,840
like my next act was to send you an

583
00:19:24,230 --> 00:19:22,320
email and go dude you're awesome

584
00:19:26,070 --> 00:19:24,240
i love what you're doing and that

585
00:19:27,430 --> 00:19:26,080
connected us and and you had sent me an

586
00:19:29,110 --> 00:19:27,440
email prior to

587
00:19:31,669 --> 00:19:29,120
because you had just reached out

588
00:19:34,230 --> 00:19:31,679
spontaneously and it's very weird that

589
00:19:36,070 --> 00:19:34,240
you have to you have to have some degree

590
00:19:38,070 --> 00:19:36,080
of self-awareness to allow

591
00:19:39,350 --> 00:19:38,080
things to happen that i think are

592
00:19:41,430 --> 00:19:39,360
beneficial for all

593
00:19:42,789 --> 00:19:41,440
but that requires the work you have to

594
00:19:44,150 --> 00:19:42,799
actually put in the work i don't think

595
00:19:45,190 --> 00:19:44,160
we're born that way there are very few

596
00:19:47,270 --> 00:19:45,200
that are born that way

597
00:19:48,470 --> 00:19:47,280
i certainly wasn't i am a complete

598
00:19:53,190 --> 00:19:48,480
[\h__\h] at baseline

599
00:19:56,710 --> 00:19:53,200
complete [\h__\h]

600
00:19:59,510 --> 00:19:58,390
animosity for those who succeed in a

601
00:20:01,350 --> 00:19:59,520
domain that you think you should be

602
00:20:04,870 --> 00:20:01,360
succeeding at a greater level than

603
00:20:06,470 --> 00:20:04,880
the person who is i've come to the

604
00:20:09,590 --> 00:20:06,480
and i haven't come to it but i'm coming

605
00:20:12,950 --> 00:20:09,600
to this idea of

606
00:20:14,310 --> 00:20:12,960
well love thy enemy and

607
00:20:15,750 --> 00:20:14,320
there are some people especially in the

608
00:20:17,669 --> 00:20:15,760
self-development scene because i used to

609
00:20:21,190 --> 00:20:17,679
be a part of that

610
00:20:23,029 --> 00:20:21,200
that i despise but i i think that the

611
00:20:26,149 --> 00:20:23,039
reason i despise them is because i'm

612
00:20:29,029 --> 00:20:26,159
jealous and so it

613
00:20:30,630 --> 00:20:29,039
took almost everything out of me

614
00:20:32,830 --> 00:20:30,640
everything from me to

615
00:20:34,149 --> 00:20:32,840
click the like button on someone that i

616
00:20:36,149 --> 00:20:34,159
hated

617
00:20:37,590 --> 00:20:36,159
and i did that as i did that as a test

618
00:20:40,070 --> 00:20:37,600
for myself

619
00:20:41,590 --> 00:20:40,080
and there's this calm that comes at

620
00:20:44,630 --> 00:20:41,600
least over myself

621
00:20:48,310 --> 00:20:46,950
i tell this story plenty so some people

622
00:20:50,390 --> 00:20:48,320
ask me how are you supposed to

623
00:20:51,590 --> 00:20:50,400
solve this whole extreme left extreme

624
00:20:53,110 --> 00:20:51,600
right divide

625
00:20:55,830 --> 00:20:53,120
and someone was interviewing me on the

626
00:20:58,950 --> 00:20:55,840
radio recently

627
00:21:01,430 --> 00:20:58,960
yesterday or or so i believe he said

628
00:21:02,710 --> 00:21:01,440
he wanted me to say what because he's

629
00:21:04,310 --> 00:21:02,720
against the extreme left

630
00:21:05,830 --> 00:21:04,320
and he wanted and usually the people who

631
00:21:06,710 --> 00:21:05,840
are adamantly against the extreme left

632
00:21:08,310 --> 00:21:06,720
identify with being

633
00:21:10,470 --> 00:21:08,320
a part of the right or even extreme

634
00:21:11,190 --> 00:21:10,480
right and he wanted me to say that what

635
00:21:13,590 --> 00:21:11,200
we need to do is

636
00:21:15,029 --> 00:21:13,600
fight back and i'm i'm forced standing

637
00:21:18,149 --> 00:21:15,039
up for oneself and saying what

638
00:21:19,669 --> 00:21:18,159
one believes i think that's noble and

639
00:21:22,710 --> 00:21:19,679
extremely difficult

640
00:21:25,510 --> 00:21:22,720
but i don't advocate for any fighting i

641
00:21:27,750 --> 00:21:25,520
advocate for extending an arm of love to

642
00:21:28,870 --> 00:21:27,760
one's enemy in the same way that there's

643
00:21:30,549 --> 00:21:28,880
the story of

644
00:21:32,230 --> 00:21:30,559
of jesus and i'm not saying this as a

645
00:21:35,270 --> 00:21:32,240
christian i'm not christian

646
00:21:39,110 --> 00:21:35,280
i'm saying this as as

647
00:21:40,470 --> 00:21:39,120
as as the teller of a story that if you

648
00:21:41,510 --> 00:21:40,480
truly thought about it would bring you

649
00:21:44,470 --> 00:21:41,520
to tears

650
00:21:45,029 --> 00:21:44,480
when jesus was being taken away by

651
00:21:47,029 --> 00:21:45,039
people who

652
00:21:50,310 --> 00:21:47,039
he knew at least according to the story

653
00:21:52,310 --> 00:21:50,320
we're going to torture him kill him

654
00:21:53,750 --> 00:21:52,320
peter who was his friend cut off the ear

655
00:21:55,430 --> 00:21:53,760
of the soldier who was taking him away

656
00:21:57,909 --> 00:21:55,440
and jesus said no

657
00:21:58,710 --> 00:21:57,919
and took the ear and healed his enemy

658
00:22:01,110 --> 00:21:58,720
and like

659
00:22:01,909 --> 00:22:01,120
that kind of love man to be shouted at

660
00:22:03,350 --> 00:22:01,919
and still say

661
00:22:05,029 --> 00:22:03,360
and not in a condescending way because

662
00:22:05,830 --> 00:22:05,039
it can easily be constant i love you

663
00:22:09,510 --> 00:22:05,840
despite you

664
00:22:11,830 --> 00:22:09,520
no but mean it and heal your enemy

665
00:22:13,270 --> 00:22:11,840
i think that's even despite knowing what

666
00:22:15,110 --> 00:22:13,280
they're doing to you i think that's

667
00:22:16,870 --> 00:22:15,120
the path forward and obviously someone

668
00:22:17,510 --> 00:22:16,880
can say well then we'll just be taken

669
00:22:19,669 --> 00:22:17,520
over by

670
00:22:21,190 --> 00:22:19,679
by brutal dictators the bullies i don't

671
00:22:23,430 --> 00:22:21,200
think that's true i think that these

672
00:22:25,190 --> 00:22:23,440
tit-for-tat models don't take into

673
00:22:26,470 --> 00:22:25,200
account inspiration the story of jesus

674
00:22:28,070 --> 00:22:26,480
is inspirational

675
00:22:29,750 --> 00:22:28,080
so these separate agents who can

676
00:22:31,830 --> 00:22:29,760
interact with one another

677
00:22:33,510 --> 00:22:31,840
with different strategies such as

678
00:22:35,669 --> 00:22:33,520
tit-for-tat or tit-for-tat with

679
00:22:36,789 --> 00:22:35,679
forgiveness i'm sure you've heard of

680
00:22:38,390 --> 00:22:36,799
these models the people who are

681
00:22:39,669 --> 00:22:38,400
listening

682
00:22:42,149 --> 00:22:39,679
i don't think they take into account

683
00:22:44,230 --> 00:22:42,159
inspiration how one agent

684
00:22:45,590 --> 00:22:44,240
if one agent identifies with themselves

685
00:22:47,270 --> 00:22:45,600
then then they die

686
00:22:48,710 --> 00:22:47,280
but if one identifies with what's good

687
00:22:50,470 --> 00:22:48,720
then one lives because

688
00:22:52,070 --> 00:22:50,480
the good lives on through you through

689
00:22:52,789 --> 00:22:52,080
your example and through influencing

690
00:22:54,870 --> 00:22:52,799
others

691
00:22:56,549 --> 00:22:54,880
so i i'm not claiming that i live by

692
00:22:57,350 --> 00:22:56,559
that but i'm coming to that realization

693
00:22:59,669 --> 00:22:57,360
more and more

694
00:23:02,230 --> 00:22:59,679
trying or at least trying to try to

695
00:23:05,350 --> 00:23:04,390
i i try to end every show we do with uh

696
00:23:07,830 --> 00:23:05,360
i love you guys

697
00:23:08,789 --> 00:23:07,840
and we're out and and mean it like

698
00:23:11,990 --> 00:23:08,799
actually mean it

699
00:23:14,630 --> 00:23:12,000
like i love everybody as they are myself

700
00:23:16,390 --> 00:23:14,640
which gets to you know one of those

701
00:23:18,549 --> 00:23:16,400
interesting philosophical and

702
00:23:19,750 --> 00:23:18,559
ontological questions of what is the

703
00:23:22,950 --> 00:23:19,760
nature of reality

704
00:23:25,110 --> 00:23:22,960
if are we one substance

705
00:23:27,350 --> 00:23:25,120
is there one mind and you talked to

706
00:23:28,149 --> 00:23:27,360
castrip and hoffman and spyra about it

707
00:23:31,510 --> 00:23:28,159
and

708
00:23:32,710 --> 00:23:31,520
i'm just curious where having talked to

709
00:23:34,390 --> 00:23:32,720
all these guys and and

710
00:23:35,990 --> 00:23:34,400
physicists and having this mathematical

711
00:23:39,190 --> 00:23:36,000
and physics

712
00:23:41,990 --> 00:23:39,200
uh physicist background you know in your

713
00:23:43,830 --> 00:23:42,000
documentary you were very

714
00:23:45,590 --> 00:23:43,840
it was really remarkable to watch

715
00:23:46,549 --> 00:23:45,600
because and again

716
00:23:48,630 --> 00:23:46,559
for some people they're just gonna be

717
00:23:50,789 --> 00:23:48,640
like i don't what the hell

718
00:23:51,750 --> 00:23:50,799
and for others you know like myself i

719
00:23:53,350 --> 00:23:51,760
was just like oh

720
00:23:54,870 --> 00:23:53,360
i've never actually connected the dots

721
00:23:56,549 --> 00:23:54,880
in the way that he's connecting it

722
00:23:59,990 --> 00:23:56,559
and by the end you know i watched the

723
00:24:02,310 --> 00:24:00,000
long director's cut it's two hours

724
00:24:03,990 --> 00:24:02,320
you you said what's the minimum amount

725
00:24:06,230 --> 00:24:04,000
of information necessary

726
00:24:08,310 --> 00:24:06,240
to extract the information and the

727
00:24:10,870 --> 00:24:08,320
meaning from the message

728
00:24:12,470 --> 00:24:10,880
and i thought that was a fascinating

729
00:24:14,789 --> 00:24:12,480
experiment because

730
00:24:16,549 --> 00:24:14,799
you know two four six eight like how how

731
00:24:17,510 --> 00:24:16,559
much do you need to get the rest of the

732
00:24:19,029 --> 00:24:17,520
pattern

733
00:24:20,630 --> 00:24:19,039
and your point was well maybe when we

734
00:24:23,909 --> 00:24:20,640
look at something like the bible and

735
00:24:25,190 --> 00:24:23,919
and and we think oh you know this whole

736
00:24:25,909 --> 00:24:25,200
thing could be reduced to the ten

737
00:24:28,149 --> 00:24:25,919
commandments

738
00:24:29,190 --> 00:24:28,159
or you know or the golden rule which is

739
00:24:30,470 --> 00:24:29,200
something i despise

740
00:24:31,750 --> 00:24:30,480
i mean i despise people saying that

741
00:24:32,710 --> 00:24:31,760
that's what connects all religions and

742
00:24:33,909 --> 00:24:32,720
that's all we need

743
00:24:35,669 --> 00:24:33,919
and i can talk about that after but

744
00:24:36,710 --> 00:24:35,679
continue oh let's definitely that's

745
00:24:37,430 --> 00:24:36,720
definitely father because that's great

746
00:24:39,029 --> 00:24:37,440
the golden rule

747
00:24:40,549 --> 00:24:39,039
so yeah and there's this idea but then

748
00:24:41,190 --> 00:24:40,559
but then you say but but is that really

749
00:24:43,510 --> 00:24:41,200
true

750
00:24:45,190 --> 00:24:43,520
because this was written first of all in

751
00:24:45,909 --> 00:24:45,200
a time in a context that's different

752
00:24:49,190 --> 00:24:45,919
from where we are

753
00:24:52,870 --> 00:24:49,200
now could the meaning have only

754
00:24:54,310 --> 00:24:52,880
emerged from a length that's roughly the

755
00:24:57,029 --> 00:24:54,320
length of the bible say

756
00:24:57,350 --> 00:24:57,039
and we're just not really savvy to to

757
00:24:58,549 --> 00:24:57,360
that

758
00:25:00,390 --> 00:24:58,559
maybe something was lost in the

759
00:25:00,789 --> 00:25:00,400
translations and so on but and and then

760
00:25:05,029 --> 00:25:00,799
you

761
00:25:06,789 --> 00:25:05,039
documentary is two hours long

762
00:25:08,149 --> 00:25:06,799
and it kind of tied the whole thing into

763
00:25:09,510 --> 00:25:08,159
a tapestry and i don't know if you did

764
00:25:10,950 --> 00:25:09,520
that intentionally or not but

765
00:25:12,390 --> 00:25:10,960
yeah maybe you want to talk about that

766
00:25:17,190 --> 00:25:12,400
and then bring it back to golden rule

767
00:25:21,990 --> 00:25:20,470
okay let's talk about the i would also

768
00:25:23,830 --> 00:25:22,000
talk about the length of the bible

769
00:25:25,350 --> 00:25:23,840
or the ancient text in general and i'd

770
00:25:26,230 --> 00:25:25,360
say that not only is the length of the

771
00:25:28,549 --> 00:25:26,240
bible

772
00:25:29,830 --> 00:25:28,559
maybe not protracted as much people as

773
00:25:32,149 --> 00:25:29,840
plenty of people think but

774
00:25:34,149 --> 00:25:32,159
it's necessary and also not not

775
00:25:36,549 --> 00:25:34,159
sufficient so it's one

776
00:25:37,590 --> 00:25:36,559
well how do you get that see apparently

777
00:25:38,950 --> 00:25:37,600
they're

778
00:25:41,269 --> 00:25:38,960
not apparently there's something called

779
00:25:44,390 --> 00:25:43,269
protestants who were driven by sola

780
00:25:47,830 --> 00:25:44,400
scriptorus meaning

781
00:25:50,870 --> 00:25:47,840
by scripture alone i don't know if i

782
00:25:54,230 --> 00:25:50,880
buy that because plenty of our

783
00:25:56,630 --> 00:25:54,240
values and well

784
00:25:57,830 --> 00:25:56,640
our values are also embodied now i

785
00:25:59,269 --> 00:25:57,840
referenced this in the

786
00:26:00,710 --> 00:25:59,279
documentary there are four forms of

787
00:26:01,510 --> 00:26:00,720
knowing at least four forms

788
00:26:03,029 --> 00:26:01,520
propositional

789
00:26:04,070 --> 00:26:03,039
that is i'm speaking right now if you

790
00:26:04,950 --> 00:26:04,080
were to simply read it that's

791
00:26:07,669 --> 00:26:04,960
propositional

792
00:26:08,789 --> 00:26:07,679
procedural i'm just i'm just speculating

793
00:26:11,669 --> 00:26:08,799
so

794
00:26:12,470 --> 00:26:11,679
there's a mod at least a modicum of body

795
00:26:14,310 --> 00:26:12,480
language though

796
00:26:15,430 --> 00:26:14,320
the research says that it's 70 and i

797
00:26:16,470 --> 00:26:15,440
don't understand how they get that

798
00:26:18,549 --> 00:26:16,480
number

799
00:26:19,830 --> 00:26:18,559
but because how do you quantify what the

800
00:26:23,110 --> 00:26:19,840
message is and so

801
00:26:26,630 --> 00:26:23,120
okay there's that then there's

802
00:26:32,789 --> 00:26:29,669
forgive my lastitude it's

803
00:26:36,390 --> 00:26:32,799
it's been quite a grueling week

804
00:26:37,669 --> 00:26:36,400
for me yeah you you've not slept

805
00:26:40,390 --> 00:26:37,679
right i haven't slept well for a few

806
00:26:42,549 --> 00:26:40,400
days and i've been on this string of

807
00:26:43,510 --> 00:26:42,559
podcasts this is the fourth one for

808
00:26:46,070 --> 00:26:43,520
today

809
00:26:47,269 --> 00:26:46,080
and after this i'm not looking forward

810
00:26:49,430 --> 00:26:47,279
to this ending i actually want to speak

811
00:26:53,909 --> 00:26:49,440
with you for like three hours if i can

812
00:26:55,590 --> 00:26:53,919
but after this zubin i am going to just

813
00:26:57,269 --> 00:26:55,600
it's i'm going to feel like like a

814
00:27:00,310 --> 00:26:57,279
junkie that just put heroin in

815
00:27:03,430 --> 00:27:00,320
my body and and just

816
00:27:05,029 --> 00:27:03,440
be dissolving a sea of bliss for

817
00:27:07,190 --> 00:27:05,039
hopefully a week or two weeks because i

818
00:27:09,269 --> 00:27:07,200
need a break okay

819
00:27:10,230 --> 00:27:09,279
we can talk about that after getting to

820
00:27:11,350 --> 00:27:10,240
the four

821
00:27:14,390 --> 00:27:11,360
forms of knowing is there's

822
00:27:18,389 --> 00:27:14,400
participatory procedural

823
00:27:21,430 --> 00:27:18,399
perspectival and propositional

824
00:27:23,830 --> 00:27:21,440
it's not clear to me that

825
00:27:25,750 --> 00:27:23,840
religion is propositional per se and i

826
00:27:26,470 --> 00:27:25,760
know the new atheists like to pick apart

827
00:27:28,789 --> 00:27:26,480
texts

828
00:27:30,950 --> 00:27:28,799
and literally interpret it and there's a

829
00:27:32,549 --> 00:27:30,960
word there's a great word to

830
00:27:33,990 --> 00:27:32,559
if you don't know it's called subraption

831
00:27:35,389 --> 00:27:34,000
it means an inference drawn from

832
00:27:37,350 --> 00:27:35,399
a deliberate deliberate

833
00:27:41,269 --> 00:27:37,360
misrepresentation and so

834
00:27:43,590 --> 00:27:41,279
what they're doing is when they disprove

835
00:27:45,750 --> 00:27:43,600
the bible they're

836
00:27:47,029 --> 00:27:45,760
they're using subraptions and i don't

837
00:27:48,230 --> 00:27:47,039
think that's true firstly i don't think

838
00:27:50,149 --> 00:27:48,240
the bible's meant to be interpreted

839
00:27:51,990 --> 00:27:50,159
literally i also have a problem with the

840
00:27:54,389 --> 00:27:52,000
word literal interpretation

841
00:27:55,510 --> 00:27:54,399
because you can't have a literal

842
00:27:57,029 --> 00:27:55,520
interpretation literal means

843
00:27:57,909 --> 00:27:57,039
uninterpreted so it's almost as if

844
00:27:59,110 --> 00:27:57,919
you're saying uninterpreted

845
00:28:03,430 --> 00:27:59,120
interpretation

846
00:28:06,389 --> 00:28:03,440
and then a third it's not clear that all

847
00:28:07,909 --> 00:28:06,399
of what a religion is is in the text so

848
00:28:11,029 --> 00:28:07,919
i'm not a fan of sola script

849
00:28:13,909 --> 00:28:11,039
taurus per se solis scriptura i think it

850
00:28:18,149 --> 00:28:16,789
yeah well i want to go back to your

851
00:28:22,230 --> 00:28:18,159
sleep

852
00:28:24,789 --> 00:28:22,240
so yes yeah how's that going

853
00:28:26,389 --> 00:28:24,799
well why so bad and and because you're

854
00:28:28,389 --> 00:28:26,399
desperate for some uh

855
00:28:30,470 --> 00:28:28,399
some rest and i think a lot of people in

856
00:28:32,630 --> 00:28:30,480
healthcare in particular suffer this

857
00:28:33,510 --> 00:28:32,640
syndrome what's been going on what's

858
00:28:37,830 --> 00:28:33,520
driving you and

859
00:28:47,990 --> 00:28:44,230
i find it difficult to shut my mind off

860
00:28:51,110 --> 00:28:48,000
i have tried meditation for

861
00:28:53,110 --> 00:28:51,120
years but not consistently

862
00:28:54,230 --> 00:28:53,120
i don't find it helps i also find that

863
00:28:56,470 --> 00:28:54,240
people who

864
00:28:58,310 --> 00:28:56,480
you probably see this people in the

865
00:28:59,590 --> 00:28:58,320
non-dual community

866
00:29:01,750 --> 00:28:59,600
people who are eastern people who are

867
00:29:03,430 --> 00:29:01,760
west they think that their view is the

868
00:29:06,470 --> 00:29:03,440
correct one and they try to blanketly

869
00:29:08,870 --> 00:29:06,480
apply it to everyone i don't know if

870
00:29:09,590 --> 00:29:08,880
it's if meditation is for everyone and i

871
00:29:11,830 --> 00:29:09,600
wonder

872
00:29:13,669 --> 00:29:11,840
part of my self-torture is by trying to

873
00:29:16,310 --> 00:29:13,679
impose meditation on me when i'm

874
00:29:17,909 --> 00:29:16,320
at this stage not meant for meditation

875
00:29:19,909 --> 00:29:17,919
it could be that it could be i'm

876
00:29:21,269 --> 00:29:19,919
not meditating correctly but either way

877
00:29:24,470 --> 00:29:21,279
meditation doesn't help

878
00:29:28,630 --> 00:29:24,480
medication can help but i'm not going to

879
00:29:31,669 --> 00:29:28,640
take benzodiazepines though melatonin

880
00:29:34,470 --> 00:29:31,679
works a scintilla cbd

881
00:29:36,549 --> 00:29:34,480
seems to work a bit either way what's

882
00:29:38,230 --> 00:29:36,559
kept what keeps me up is

883
00:29:39,830 --> 00:29:38,240
generally if i have an interview for the

884
00:29:40,950 --> 00:29:39,840
next few days i'm playing over scenarios

885
00:29:42,389 --> 00:29:40,960
and i'm trying to

886
00:29:43,990 --> 00:29:42,399
understand the theory of the person that

887
00:29:46,710 --> 00:29:44,000
i'm interviewing

888
00:29:47,750 --> 00:29:46,720
that's one of the i was speaking with a

889
00:29:51,590 --> 00:29:47,760
prominent youtuber

890
00:29:53,909 --> 00:29:51,600
i'll tell you off air who that is zubin

891
00:29:55,430 --> 00:29:53,919
he was asking me he's like hey kurt i

892
00:29:57,029 --> 00:29:55,440
have more subscribers than you but you

893
00:29:59,510 --> 00:29:57,039
have more views

894
00:30:01,990 --> 00:29:59,520
how is it that you do so and then i said

895
00:30:05,750 --> 00:30:02,000
it's extreme luck which it is like

896
00:30:06,549 --> 00:30:05,760
95 luck man and then also an extreme

897
00:30:08,070 --> 00:30:06,559
amount of work

898
00:30:09,990 --> 00:30:08,080
and the work is because i'm trying to

899
00:30:11,510 --> 00:30:10,000
understand

900
00:30:13,430 --> 00:30:11,520
i'm trying to comprehend these theories

901
00:30:15,190 --> 00:30:13,440
the whole point of the podcast it's not

902
00:30:16,950 --> 00:30:15,200
i don't care too much about conversing

903
00:30:17,269 --> 00:30:16,960
with people i care about understanding

904
00:30:21,990 --> 00:30:17,279
the

905
00:30:23,669 --> 00:30:22,000
advancing

906
00:30:25,190 --> 00:30:23,679
our own and i say our own because the

907
00:30:27,669 --> 00:30:25,200
theories of everything

908
00:30:28,870 --> 00:30:27,679
youtube is almost like a community and

909
00:30:30,950 --> 00:30:28,880
and i'm

910
00:30:34,149 --> 00:30:30,960
i would like it to be a i would like

911
00:30:37,430 --> 00:30:34,159
myself to be a vessel rather than the

912
00:30:40,149 --> 00:30:37,440
prominent person of it in fact i think

913
00:30:41,990 --> 00:30:40,159
i think there are some youtube channels

914
00:30:45,110 --> 00:30:42,000
that have had a nominal have had

915
00:30:46,549 --> 00:30:45,120
a name that's tangential to what they do

916
00:30:48,310 --> 00:30:46,559
and then their name attached so let's

917
00:30:49,909 --> 00:30:48,320
say i'm

918
00:30:51,590 --> 00:30:49,919
going to pick on some people but please

919
00:30:53,430 --> 00:30:51,600
of your these two youtubers

920
00:30:54,950 --> 00:30:53,440
i love you okay so there's artificial

921
00:30:57,029 --> 00:30:54,960
intelligence with lex friedman

922
00:30:57,990 --> 00:30:57,039
and then there was modern wisdom with

923
00:31:00,070 --> 00:30:58,000
chris williamson

924
00:31:01,029 --> 00:31:00,080
and then what they do is they remove the

925
00:31:03,269 --> 00:31:01,039
prior and then

926
00:31:04,789 --> 00:31:03,279
just they omit that and keep their name

927
00:31:06,470 --> 00:31:04,799
i am

928
00:31:07,909 --> 00:31:06,480
toying with doing the opposite because i

929
00:31:09,029 --> 00:31:07,919
don't want this to be about me so maybe

930
00:31:09,509 --> 00:31:09,039
eventually you'll be theories of

931
00:31:12,789 --> 00:31:09,519
everything

932
00:31:15,190 --> 00:31:12,799
obviously there's some of me that's

933
00:31:16,310 --> 00:31:15,200
doing a bit of branding by keeping my

934
00:31:17,669 --> 00:31:16,320
name in the channel

935
00:31:19,669 --> 00:31:17,679
but at some point i'd like to truncate

936
00:31:20,950 --> 00:31:19,679
that either way i'm sure the whole point

937
00:31:26,149 --> 00:31:20,960
of the channel is to explore

938
00:31:29,669 --> 00:31:28,710
deeply ensconcing myself in these

939
00:31:32,789 --> 00:31:29,679
theories

940
00:31:34,950 --> 00:31:32,799
and it takes they're not trivial

941
00:31:35,830 --> 00:31:34,960
not trivial in the least in fact try

942
00:31:37,509 --> 00:31:35,840
reading

943
00:31:39,430 --> 00:31:37,519
three pages of what chris langan has

944
00:31:40,630 --> 00:31:39,440
written that took me a day to get

945
00:31:43,430 --> 00:31:40,640
through three pages

946
00:31:44,950 --> 00:31:43,440
and it gets gets quicker obviously as

947
00:31:46,710 --> 00:31:44,960
you get familiar with the terminology

948
00:31:47,190 --> 00:31:46,720
but i'm trying to understand these and

949
00:31:50,070 --> 00:31:47,200
so

950
00:31:50,789 --> 00:31:50,080
prominent youtuber and he was saying hey

951
00:31:54,389 --> 00:31:50,799
kurt

952
00:31:56,149 --> 00:31:54,399
your channel has less

953
00:31:58,389 --> 00:31:56,159
subscribers but more views how i said

954
00:31:59,669 --> 00:31:58,399
it's nice it's like luck and then work

955
00:32:01,990 --> 00:31:59,679
extreme amount of work and he got

956
00:32:03,669 --> 00:32:02,000
offended at the extreme amount of work

957
00:32:05,269 --> 00:32:03,679
aspect he said well my work doesn't

958
00:32:07,750 --> 00:32:05,279
drain me i just listen to them i listen

959
00:32:09,750 --> 00:32:07,760
to guests on podcasts i go for

960
00:32:11,029 --> 00:32:09,760
i do it when i while i meditate or while

961
00:32:12,870 --> 00:32:11,039
i'm doing the dishes in fact it

962
00:32:13,990 --> 00:32:12,880
invigorates me and it was as if he was

963
00:32:17,269 --> 00:32:14,000
offended that i said

964
00:32:18,950 --> 00:32:17,279
that the work that i do drains me and

965
00:32:20,389 --> 00:32:18,960
i do think what i'm doing right now the

966
00:32:22,549 --> 00:32:20,399
way that i'm doing it is unhealthy

967
00:32:24,630 --> 00:32:22,559
obviously because i'm

968
00:32:25,830 --> 00:32:24,640
barely able to articulate a sentence

969
00:32:28,710 --> 00:32:25,840
here

970
00:32:31,669 --> 00:32:28,720
but but i don't see right now i don't

971
00:32:36,470 --> 00:32:35,029
around this given the goal of deeply

972
00:32:37,029 --> 00:32:36,480
trying to understand these theories of

973
00:32:39,029 --> 00:32:37,039
everything

974
00:32:41,509 --> 00:32:39,039
so that affects my sleep at times

975
00:32:45,110 --> 00:32:41,519
luckily zubin

976
00:32:47,190 --> 00:32:45,120
after this man i just i'm going i'm

977
00:32:51,029 --> 00:32:47,200
going to rest for like i'm i'm going to

978
00:32:57,350 --> 00:32:55,029
man i i how old are you kurt can i ask

979
00:32:58,549 --> 00:32:57,360
yeah sure how old do i look and you're

980
00:33:00,710 --> 00:32:58,559
not gonna offend me

981
00:33:01,590 --> 00:33:00,720
oh man you look like you're in your 20s

982
00:33:04,789 --> 00:33:01,600
dude no

983
00:33:07,350 --> 00:33:04,799
i'm 32. really well dude

984
00:33:08,230 --> 00:33:07,360
so you're still 32 to me is it is is

985
00:33:11,909 --> 00:33:08,240
very young

986
00:33:15,269 --> 00:33:11,919
uh and when i was your age my mind

987
00:33:15,990 --> 00:33:15,279
was so overactive and and i i was like

988
00:33:19,990 --> 00:33:16,000
you

989
00:33:22,149 --> 00:33:20,000
very diligent and very uh wrapped in the

990
00:33:24,230 --> 00:33:22,159
intellectual aspects the thinking

991
00:33:24,870 --> 00:33:24,240
process and the making the connections

992
00:33:27,269 --> 00:33:24,880
and

993
00:33:28,950 --> 00:33:27,279
if i closed my eyes a million thoughts

994
00:33:31,830 --> 00:33:28,960
and a million connections and

995
00:33:33,990 --> 00:33:31,840
with that came with that kind of

996
00:33:37,029 --> 00:33:34,000
capacity comes high anxiety

997
00:33:38,630 --> 00:33:37,039
so sleep was not there it just didn't

998
00:33:42,230 --> 00:33:38,640
happen and

999
00:33:43,990 --> 00:33:42,240
the the that sort of phenotype of person

1000
00:33:46,389 --> 00:33:44,000
i kind of see it in you when i see your

1001
00:33:47,750 --> 00:33:46,399
interviews because i can tell

1002
00:33:50,149 --> 00:33:47,760
i think most of the audience can tell

1003
00:33:52,789 --> 00:33:50,159
that you've put a [\h__\h] ton of work

1004
00:33:53,909 --> 00:33:52,799
into these guests like the fact that you

1005
00:33:55,590 --> 00:33:53,919
can talk for

1006
00:33:57,909 --> 00:33:55,600
you know three or four hours to somebody

1007
00:34:01,509 --> 00:33:57,919
who's esoteric to begin with

1008
00:34:04,789 --> 00:34:01,519
right is is pretty remarkable

1009
00:34:07,909 --> 00:34:04,799
there's no answer for that right away

1010
00:34:11,589 --> 00:34:07,919
the answer starts to emerge as you

1011
00:34:14,149 --> 00:34:11,599
become more absolutely i agree

1012
00:34:15,510 --> 00:34:14,159
yeah you any if i were to tell you bro

1013
00:34:17,270 --> 00:34:15,520
you just need to realize that you're

1014
00:34:19,270 --> 00:34:17,280
just pure consciousness man and these

1015
00:34:19,990 --> 00:34:19,280
thoughts are just going across the sky

1016
00:34:21,750 --> 00:34:20,000
like clouds

1017
00:34:24,470 --> 00:34:21,760
and you can watch them good luck with

1018
00:34:27,109 --> 00:34:24,480
that try that just try that

1019
00:34:27,909 --> 00:34:27,119
at this stage we're identified with the

1020
00:34:34,389 --> 00:34:27,919
thought stream

1021
00:34:35,909 --> 00:34:34,399
and in a way that's awesome because

1022
00:34:37,589 --> 00:34:35,919
that's how we

1023
00:34:40,149 --> 00:34:37,599
like the guy who was offended by the

1024
00:34:43,349 --> 00:34:40,159
amount of diligence you'd really want to

1025
00:34:44,710 --> 00:34:43,359
introspect and go okay why is that is it

1026
00:34:47,109 --> 00:34:44,720
is it is he threatened by someone who

1027
00:34:49,750 --> 00:34:47,119
can work hard and is talented or is he

1028
00:34:50,950 --> 00:34:49,760
is he more really convinced that his way

1029
00:34:52,710 --> 00:34:50,960
is the only way

1030
00:34:54,470 --> 00:34:52,720
i'll tell you when when you tell me that

1031
00:34:56,550 --> 00:34:54,480
i go ah

1032
00:34:58,150 --> 00:34:56,560
that's why it's combination of things

1033
00:35:01,270 --> 00:34:58,160
why your stuff is so good

1034
00:35:03,030 --> 00:35:01,280
i have at this age i'm 48

1035
00:35:04,390 --> 00:35:03,040
so it took me i don't know how many

1036
00:35:07,990 --> 00:35:04,400
decades to

1037
00:35:11,109 --> 00:35:08,000
release how old are you sorry

1038
00:35:12,550 --> 00:35:11,119
i'm uh 48. so

1039
00:35:16,150 --> 00:35:12,560
it took me however many decades to

1040
00:35:19,750 --> 00:35:16,160
release this fixation that i had on

1041
00:35:21,829 --> 00:35:19,760
hyper diligence as a way to get by

1042
00:35:23,270 --> 00:35:21,839
and but i needed it if i didn't have it

1043
00:35:24,950 --> 00:35:23,280
i wouldn't have the tool

1044
00:35:27,430 --> 00:35:24,960
tool set that i have to do what i do and

1045
00:35:29,829 --> 00:35:27,440
now what i do is i try to drop into

1046
00:35:31,670 --> 00:35:29,839
flow and see what happens sometimes it

1047
00:35:32,950 --> 00:35:31,680
works sometimes it doesn't there's some

1048
00:35:34,150 --> 00:35:32,960
part of the audience that loves that

1049
00:35:35,430 --> 00:35:34,160
there's some part of the audience that

1050
00:35:37,990 --> 00:35:35,440
really wants a more

1051
00:35:39,829 --> 00:35:38,000
structured sort of thing but i can't be

1052
00:35:40,390 --> 00:35:39,839
anything but what i am in this moment

1053
00:35:42,470 --> 00:35:40,400
now

1054
00:35:44,150 --> 00:35:42,480
it used to be i would try not to be i

1055
00:35:47,829 --> 00:35:44,160
try to be whatever anyone wanted

1056
00:35:50,550 --> 00:35:47,839
which was very it was very ego

1057
00:35:52,150 --> 00:35:50,560
dystonic it felt very wrong but yet you

1058
00:35:54,870 --> 00:35:52,160
get the dopamine burst from whatever

1059
00:35:57,349 --> 00:35:54,880
validation that came from doing that so

1060
00:35:58,870 --> 00:35:57,359
it really took a lot of time for me to

1061
00:36:00,630 --> 00:35:58,880
find that way

1062
00:36:03,109 --> 00:36:00,640
and i'm not saying that's your path but

1063
00:36:04,630 --> 00:36:03,119
i think that i'm very sympathetic to

1064
00:36:08,550 --> 00:36:04,640
what you're going through

1065
00:36:10,069 --> 00:36:08,560
it's very hard very very hard um

1066
00:36:12,230 --> 00:36:10,079
your your documentary by the way for

1067
00:36:14,870 --> 00:36:12,240
people who have not seen it

1068
00:36:17,109 --> 00:36:14,880
it really speaks to who you are it it

1069
00:36:19,270 --> 00:36:17,119
there's so many gems in there of

1070
00:36:20,310 --> 00:36:19,280
kind of getting at who kurt is right now

1071
00:36:22,630 --> 00:36:20,320
that it's it's

1072
00:36:24,390 --> 00:36:22,640
absolutely a fascinating thing to watch

1073
00:36:25,990 --> 00:36:24,400
and and when you talk about your parents

1074
00:36:27,670 --> 00:36:26,000
i thought that was fascinating because

1075
00:36:28,630 --> 00:36:27,680
i resonated with one of the things he

1076
00:36:29,510 --> 00:36:28,640
said and i don't know if you said this

1077
00:36:30,950 --> 00:36:29,520
consciously or

1078
00:36:32,470 --> 00:36:30,960
as just part of who you are you said you

1079
00:36:33,990 --> 00:36:32,480
know i really the idea that i they may

1080
00:36:35,349 --> 00:36:34,000
not be around to kind of see what i've

1081
00:36:36,630 --> 00:36:35,359
accomplished and that kind of thing i'm

1082
00:36:38,550 --> 00:36:36,640
like

1083
00:36:40,069 --> 00:36:38,560
that's that's an immigrant thing man

1084
00:36:41,990 --> 00:36:40,079
like for me

1085
00:36:43,990 --> 00:36:42,000
like this idea that so much of my life i

1086
00:36:45,510 --> 00:36:44,000
lived like what am i gonna do to

1087
00:36:47,670 --> 00:36:45,520
to show my parents that i'm worthy of

1088
00:36:49,990 --> 00:36:47,680
being a kid of theirs

1089
00:36:50,790 --> 00:36:50,000
and and then at some point something

1090
00:36:52,550 --> 00:36:50,800
snaps

1091
00:36:54,790 --> 00:36:52,560
i think maybe you do actually accomplish

1092
00:36:55,910 --> 00:36:54,800
enough or you let it go but then

1093
00:36:58,150 --> 00:36:55,920
suddenly it's like

1094
00:36:59,990 --> 00:36:58,160
how can i show you i'm just like doing

1095
00:37:01,990 --> 00:37:00,000
as little as possible and just trying to

1096
00:37:03,270 --> 00:37:02,000
be me

1097
00:37:05,109 --> 00:37:03,280
you know because i think that's

1098
00:37:06,950 --> 00:37:05,119
ultimately what we all you know

1099
00:37:08,150 --> 00:37:06,960
what i was looking for but yeah i got to

1100
00:37:08,630 --> 00:37:08,160
change my headphones and i want to hear

1101
00:37:10,390 --> 00:37:08,640
you

1102
00:37:11,750 --> 00:37:10,400
through this stream of consciousness

1103
00:37:13,510 --> 00:37:11,760
just give me a second all right

1104
00:37:14,630 --> 00:37:13,520
yeah of course so while you're doing

1105
00:37:15,109 --> 00:37:14,640
that i'm going to look at some comments

1106
00:37:22,150 --> 00:37:15,119
here

1107
00:37:24,230 --> 00:37:22,160
too much at one time try separating the

1108
00:37:25,990 --> 00:37:24,240
now to what can wait says ann

1109
00:37:28,150 --> 00:37:26,000
cairns so that's always that's good

1110
00:37:30,710 --> 00:37:28,160
advice for anyone it's very hard for an

1111
00:37:31,270 --> 00:37:30,720
autonomic mind because we're not really

1112
00:37:32,470 --> 00:37:31,280
we

1113
00:37:34,069 --> 00:37:32,480
see so here's one of the things that i

1114
00:37:35,510 --> 00:37:34,079
thought of you know when i was hearing

1115
00:37:39,190 --> 00:37:35,520
you talk about this

1116
00:37:42,230 --> 00:37:39,200
there is for me when that happens

1117
00:37:44,950 --> 00:37:42,240
oh yeah sure sure um

1118
00:37:48,310 --> 00:37:44,960
can you hear me now though or no ah now

1119
00:37:51,510 --> 00:37:49,990
all right we're going to find out

1120
00:37:52,870 --> 00:37:51,520
because i don't want to talk great yeah

1121
00:37:55,270 --> 00:37:52,880
yeah okay i can hear you chris yeah

1122
00:37:56,150 --> 00:37:55,280
you can hear me i don't know if okay i

1123
00:37:57,589 --> 00:37:56,160
don't know if anyone

1124
00:37:59,430 --> 00:37:57,599
can help me with this tech problem

1125
00:38:00,470 --> 00:37:59,440
anytime i use obs which is recording

1126
00:38:02,310 --> 00:38:00,480
right now

1127
00:38:03,670 --> 00:38:02,320
there's distortion placed on the head on

1128
00:38:06,230 --> 00:38:03,680
the bluetooth headphones

1129
00:38:08,230 --> 00:38:06,240
don't know why that is okay continue

1130
00:38:09,670 --> 00:38:08,240
yeah i use obs for streaming live but

1131
00:38:12,390 --> 00:38:09,680
not in this case because i'm

1132
00:38:13,990 --> 00:38:12,400
using um caster but i found that obs is

1133
00:38:15,589 --> 00:38:14,000
very quirky since it's open

1134
00:38:17,190 --> 00:38:15,599
source there's some weird stuff in there

1135
00:38:18,710 --> 00:38:17,200
that yeah people may know the answer

1136
00:38:20,310 --> 00:38:18,720
okay so so one thing you said when you

1137
00:38:23,750 --> 00:38:20,320
talked about this thought

1138
00:38:26,230 --> 00:38:23,760
storm that you have at night

1139
00:38:26,950 --> 00:38:26,240
that prevents you from sleeping i i

1140
00:38:30,069 --> 00:38:26,960
actually

1141
00:38:30,870 --> 00:38:30,079
think of that as a storm of thought for

1142
00:38:34,630 --> 00:38:30,880
many people

1143
00:38:37,430 --> 00:38:34,640
myself as one of these we

1144
00:38:39,510 --> 00:38:37,440
hold ourselves accountable for having

1145
00:38:41,190 --> 00:38:39,520
the thought storm and it wraps a series

1146
00:38:43,270 --> 00:38:41,200
of meta beliefs around

1147
00:38:44,710 --> 00:38:43,280
what's actually happening so thoughts

1148
00:38:46,150 --> 00:38:44,720
are coming and then we go these thoughts

1149
00:38:46,950 --> 00:38:46,160
shouldn't be coming so fast i should be

1150
00:38:48,870 --> 00:38:46,960
sleeping right now

1151
00:38:50,470 --> 00:38:48,880
why can't i turn the thoughts off why am

1152
00:38:52,390 --> 00:38:50,480
i having these thoughts i'm

1153
00:38:53,510 --> 00:38:52,400
somehow a bad person or i'm not good

1154
00:38:55,910 --> 00:38:53,520
enough or whatever and

1155
00:38:57,109 --> 00:38:55,920
that adds another layer because as as

1156
00:38:58,150 --> 00:38:57,119
you probably know from talking to so

1157
00:38:59,510 --> 00:38:58,160
many people that you've talked to we

1158
00:39:02,870 --> 00:38:59,520
don't author our thoughts

1159
00:39:04,710 --> 00:39:02,880
in fact any level of investigation can

1160
00:39:05,990 --> 00:39:04,720
kind of reveal pretty quickly that these

1161
00:39:07,670 --> 00:39:06,000
thoughts arise

1162
00:39:09,030 --> 00:39:07,680
they may be from causes and conditions

1163
00:39:09,750 --> 00:39:09,040
but we're not the author of them in

1164
00:39:13,270 --> 00:39:09,760
other words

1165
00:39:16,310 --> 00:39:13,280
we cannot control what we think because

1166
00:39:17,270 --> 00:39:16,320
even trying to do that actually causes

1167
00:39:19,270 --> 00:39:17,280
more thoughts to

1168
00:39:21,349 --> 00:39:19,280
ripple in the pond of consciousness that

1169
00:39:22,470 --> 00:39:21,359
doesn't mean we can't frame our response

1170
00:39:25,270 --> 00:39:22,480
to the thoughts

1171
00:39:26,470 --> 00:39:25,280
or how we kind of interpret our our

1172
00:39:29,510 --> 00:39:26,480
thought storm

1173
00:39:31,190 --> 00:39:29,520
but we certainly can't control the

1174
00:39:33,510 --> 00:39:31,200
actual thoughts that arise and

1175
00:39:35,030 --> 00:39:33,520
that illusion of control which again

1176
00:39:36,390 --> 00:39:35,040
relates to free will and all that

1177
00:39:38,150 --> 00:39:36,400
which is a whole another thing but

1178
00:39:39,270 --> 00:39:38,160
that'll we're going to talk about that

1179
00:39:41,190 --> 00:39:39,280
yeah we should definitely talk about

1180
00:39:43,670 --> 00:39:41,200
that that illusion of control it

1181
00:39:45,270 --> 00:39:43,680
creates a kind of suffering it's a kind

1182
00:39:45,990 --> 00:39:45,280
of a meta-suffering on top of the

1183
00:39:49,270 --> 00:39:46,000
suffering of

1184
00:39:51,030 --> 00:39:49,280
identifying with the thoughts so it's

1185
00:39:51,510 --> 00:39:51,040
very hard to tease those things out it's

1186
00:39:53,510 --> 00:39:51,520
only

1187
00:39:55,109 --> 00:39:53,520
recently that i've been able to watch my

1188
00:39:56,470 --> 00:39:55,119
mind enough

1189
00:39:58,390 --> 00:39:56,480
with a lot of help from different

1190
00:39:59,510 --> 00:39:58,400
resources that to go oh look what's

1191
00:40:01,910 --> 00:39:59,520
happening

1192
00:40:03,589 --> 00:40:01,920
this is a thought storm you know okay

1193
00:40:04,950 --> 00:40:03,599
okay don't don't i'm not going to judge

1194
00:40:05,750 --> 00:40:04,960
myself for the thought storm and what's

1195
00:40:07,589 --> 00:40:05,760
weird is

1196
00:40:10,390 --> 00:40:07,599
the thought storm then kind of runs its

1197
00:40:12,950 --> 00:40:10,400
course so now when i wake up at 3 a.m

1198
00:40:13,829 --> 00:40:12,960
with this feeling of like pressure in

1199
00:40:15,750 --> 00:40:13,839
the chest

1200
00:40:17,030 --> 00:40:15,760
this unknown source of anxiety right

1201
00:40:18,550 --> 00:40:17,040
that clearly has some cause and

1202
00:40:19,990 --> 00:40:18,560
condition that i can't pinpoint

1203
00:40:21,589 --> 00:40:20,000
and then the thought storm launches oh

1204
00:40:23,030 --> 00:40:21,599
my god why am i anxious why am i so

1205
00:40:24,150 --> 00:40:23,040
anxious oh i have an interview today

1206
00:40:26,069 --> 00:40:24,160
oh man what am i going to do in this

1207
00:40:27,829 --> 00:40:26,079
interview and then the thoughts start

1208
00:40:29,670 --> 00:40:27,839
secreting like the sponge of the mind

1209
00:40:32,550 --> 00:40:29,680
squeezes and it just secretes

1210
00:40:33,990 --> 00:40:32,560
these thoughts i'm able to actually at

1211
00:40:35,589 --> 00:40:34,000
some point get a meta-aware

1212
00:40:36,870 --> 00:40:35,599
metacognition and go oh look at this

1213
00:40:39,349 --> 00:40:36,880
look what's happening okay

1214
00:40:40,069 --> 00:40:39,359
okay when you say you're able to do that

1215
00:40:41,829 --> 00:40:40,079
how are you

1216
00:40:43,349 --> 00:40:41,839
able to do that without exercising free

1217
00:40:47,030 --> 00:40:43,359
will

1218
00:40:53,349 --> 00:40:47,040
fascinating

1219
00:40:55,109 --> 00:40:53,359
know the arguments against free will we

1220
00:40:56,470 --> 00:40:55,119
know arguments for determinism that

1221
00:40:58,710 --> 00:40:56,480
everything is just causes and conditions

1222
00:41:01,990 --> 00:40:58,720
then we're just along for the ride

1223
00:41:02,470 --> 00:41:02,000
but actually i'm increasingly wondering

1224
00:41:05,750 --> 00:41:02,480
whether

1225
00:41:09,109 --> 00:41:05,760
how we direct our attention

1226
00:41:12,309 --> 00:41:09,119
is not one of the only things within

1227
00:41:14,390 --> 00:41:12,319
some degree of will now

1228
00:41:16,150 --> 00:41:14,400
hoffman with his conscious agent theory

1229
00:41:19,349 --> 00:41:16,160
actually feels that

1230
00:41:23,030 --> 00:41:19,359
each agent within the complex

1231
00:41:26,150 --> 00:41:23,040
instantiation that we are has its own

1232
00:41:28,870 --> 00:41:26,160
de novo uh uh

1233
00:41:30,069 --> 00:41:28,880
free will but it's constrained by the

1234
00:41:32,309 --> 00:41:30,079
free will decisions of

1235
00:41:33,589 --> 00:41:32,319
other agents within the matrix and

1236
00:41:35,270 --> 00:41:33,599
therefore

1237
00:41:37,190 --> 00:41:35,280
true likes free will at this

1238
00:41:38,150 --> 00:41:37,200
instantiation isn't really true it's

1239
00:41:39,910 --> 00:41:38,160
constrained

1240
00:41:42,069 --> 00:41:39,920
but yet novelty still enters the

1241
00:41:44,550 --> 00:41:42,079
universe in the form of decisions

1242
00:41:45,990 --> 00:41:44,560
at each level and so i think free will's

1243
00:41:48,069 --> 00:41:46,000
i don't think there is no free will i

1244
00:41:48,870 --> 00:41:48,079
think free will is not what we think it

1245
00:41:53,670 --> 00:41:48,880
is

1246
00:41:55,270 --> 00:41:53,680
i just don't think it's what we think it

1247
00:41:57,109 --> 00:41:55,280
is so there's

1248
00:41:58,630 --> 00:41:57,119
a something that happens and you could

1249
00:41:59,270 --> 00:41:58,640
even say this well even that's not free

1250
00:42:01,190 --> 00:41:59,280
will when i'm

1251
00:42:02,630 --> 00:42:01,200
recognizing the thought storm and i'm

1252
00:42:05,430 --> 00:42:02,640
deciding to do this thing

1253
00:42:06,950 --> 00:42:05,440
it's more that this neuronal storm this

1254
00:42:09,589 --> 00:42:06,960
complex series of

1255
00:42:10,950 --> 00:42:09,599
of happenings that is me suddenly

1256
00:42:12,470 --> 00:42:10,960
because of previous causes and

1257
00:42:15,030 --> 00:42:12,480
conditions i read a text

1258
00:42:15,990 --> 00:42:15,040
i studied some buddhism i read sam

1259
00:42:18,230 --> 00:42:16,000
harris's book on free

1260
00:42:19,109 --> 00:42:18,240
will i studied angela de lulo's book on

1261
00:42:21,430 --> 00:42:19,119
awakening

1262
00:42:23,589 --> 00:42:21,440
and now there's enough juice there to

1263
00:42:26,309 --> 00:42:23,599
emerge a decision to go

1264
00:42:27,829 --> 00:42:26,319
a decision that's mine to go oh this is

1265
00:42:29,750 --> 00:42:27,839
this thought storm i should

1266
00:42:31,829 --> 00:42:29,760
sit back and watch it and then let it

1267
00:42:33,910 --> 00:42:31,839
dissipate so it's very

1268
00:42:35,030 --> 00:42:33,920
complex and i think even claiming to

1269
00:42:39,349 --> 00:42:35,040
understand it would be

1270
00:42:43,430 --> 00:42:41,270
so in what you just articulated it's

1271
00:42:47,030 --> 00:42:43,440
more about that we don't have free will

1272
00:42:50,150 --> 00:42:47,040
it's that our decisions are based upon

1273
00:42:53,670 --> 00:42:50,160
the prior conditions and these

1274
00:42:56,710 --> 00:42:55,430
i would say this i i'm actually kind of

1275
00:42:59,589 --> 00:42:56,720
partial to the buddhist

1276
00:43:00,870 --> 00:42:59,599
idea of dependent origination that

1277
00:43:02,870 --> 00:43:00,880
everything happens

1278
00:43:04,550 --> 00:43:02,880
because of causes and conditions that

1279
00:43:06,470 --> 00:43:04,560
aren't simple it's not just

1280
00:43:08,150 --> 00:43:06,480
i lift up the cup therefore this happens

1281
00:43:09,349 --> 00:43:08,160
it's more like the entire web is

1282
00:43:11,750 --> 00:43:09,359
connected

1283
00:43:14,230 --> 00:43:11,760
in ways that even the super super

1284
00:43:17,270 --> 00:43:14,240
computer can't could never predict yet

1285
00:43:19,670 --> 00:43:17,280
and that then you know

1286
00:43:20,550 --> 00:43:19,680
unified vibration of stuff happening

1287
00:43:23,430 --> 00:43:20,560
affects what

1288
00:43:25,190 --> 00:43:23,440
thought arises next have you heard of

1289
00:43:26,950 --> 00:43:25,200
wolfram's concept of computational

1290
00:43:30,309 --> 00:43:26,960
irreducibility

1291
00:43:31,829 --> 00:43:30,319
i haven't okay so what it is it's it's

1292
00:43:33,750 --> 00:43:31,839
wolfram thinks that this is the origin

1293
00:43:37,270 --> 00:43:33,760
of free will

1294
00:43:40,069 --> 00:43:37,280
computational irreducibility means that

1295
00:43:41,750 --> 00:43:40,079
a system is you can't predict the

1296
00:43:42,390 --> 00:43:41,760
outcome of a system without running the

1297
00:43:43,829 --> 00:43:42,400
system

1298
00:43:45,270 --> 00:43:43,839
and because we're embedded within the

1299
00:43:46,870 --> 00:43:45,280
system that we're running you can't

1300
00:43:55,069 --> 00:43:46,880
predict your own actions

1301
00:43:57,910 --> 00:43:55,079
unless you simply run them almost like

1302
00:44:00,230 --> 00:43:57,920
a simple example is

1303
00:44:01,030 --> 00:44:00,240
fluid dynamics it's difficult to know

1304
00:44:02,390 --> 00:44:01,040
what's

1305
00:44:04,550 --> 00:44:02,400
where a certain particle is going to end

1306
00:44:08,150 --> 00:44:04,560
up unless you just simulate it

1307
00:44:09,349 --> 00:44:08,160
you can't derive it and

1308
00:44:11,349 --> 00:44:09,359
right okay well then he would say that

1309
00:44:11,990 --> 00:44:11,359
that's the origin of free will i don't

1310
00:44:14,790 --> 00:44:12,000
it sounds

1311
00:44:15,430 --> 00:44:14,800
similar to what you're saying okay i

1312
00:44:17,349 --> 00:44:15,440
love that

1313
00:44:18,550 --> 00:44:17,359
and i'll tell you why because you know

1314
00:44:20,150 --> 00:44:18,560
there's i think there's

1315
00:44:22,710 --> 00:44:20,160
i don't know if it's fmri data or what

1316
00:44:25,510 --> 00:44:22,720
but human minds

1317
00:44:27,190 --> 00:44:25,520
simulate out what they're going to do

1318
00:44:28,630 --> 00:44:27,200
and in fact i think sam harris has

1319
00:44:30,309 --> 00:44:28,640
talked about this

1320
00:44:31,829 --> 00:44:30,319
we you know if i if i go i want to pick

1321
00:44:34,630 --> 00:44:31,839
up this cup

1322
00:44:36,069 --> 00:44:34,640
my mind has already done a projection

1323
00:44:37,349 --> 00:44:36,079
this is what it looks like and it lights

1324
00:44:38,870 --> 00:44:37,359
up motor sections of the brain that

1325
00:44:40,550 --> 00:44:38,880
would normally be involved in actually

1326
00:44:42,790 --> 00:44:40,560
picking up that cup

1327
00:44:43,829 --> 00:44:42,800
so in a way our mind is like a future

1328
00:44:47,829 --> 00:44:43,839
predictor but

1329
00:44:49,430 --> 00:44:47,839
that act of prediction feels to the to

1330
00:44:52,309 --> 00:44:49,440
the consciousness that we are

1331
00:44:53,190 --> 00:44:52,319
like a free will decision it's almost

1332
00:44:55,270 --> 00:44:53,200
like

1333
00:44:56,870 --> 00:44:55,280
it you know it predict you know and

1334
00:44:57,589 --> 00:44:56,880
these studies have been decided you know

1335
00:44:59,109 --> 00:44:57,599
you know

1336
00:45:01,670 --> 00:44:59,119
you've made a decision like up to six

1337
00:45:02,790 --> 00:45:01,680
seconds on fmri before you're aware the

1338
00:45:04,550 --> 00:45:02,800
decision has been made

1339
00:45:07,030 --> 00:45:04,560
but that doesn't mean that some aspect

1340
00:45:10,230 --> 00:45:07,040
of your mind system hasn't

1341
00:45:12,390 --> 00:45:10,240
hasn't con hasn't in a free will sense

1342
00:45:14,630 --> 00:45:12,400
de novo made a decision

1343
00:45:16,870 --> 00:45:14,640
that you're just not aware of at this

1344
00:45:18,550 --> 00:45:16,880
level of consciousness where we are

1345
00:45:20,230 --> 00:45:18,560
and that's why you know we have all

1346
00:45:21,750 --> 00:45:20,240
these unconscious processes that in

1347
00:45:23,670 --> 00:45:21,760
themselves may well be

1348
00:45:25,430 --> 00:45:23,680
conscious at their level in a way we are

1349
00:45:28,710 --> 00:45:25,440
not able to experience without

1350
00:45:29,829 --> 00:45:28,720
brain damage drugs whatever that put us

1351
00:45:33,829 --> 00:45:29,839
at that level

1352
00:45:37,270 --> 00:45:33,839
um so free will becomes this intensely

1353
00:45:41,030 --> 00:45:39,430
thing to even think about and and one

1354
00:45:43,270 --> 00:45:41,040
thing i want i want to say is

1355
00:45:44,390 --> 00:45:43,280
if you've ever had a meditative

1356
00:45:46,230 --> 00:45:44,400
experience and it's not really

1357
00:45:47,190 --> 00:45:46,240
meditative it's more a non-dual

1358
00:45:51,030 --> 00:45:47,200
experience

1359
00:45:56,309 --> 00:45:53,190
and i i can actually try to put myself

1360
00:45:59,430 --> 00:45:56,319
in this headspace even now

1361
00:46:01,829 --> 00:45:59,440
where and there's a beautiful

1362
00:46:04,309 --> 00:46:01,839
old piece of wisdom writing a buddha

1363
00:46:07,349 --> 00:46:04,319
suta called the bahia suta

1364
00:46:10,390 --> 00:46:07,359
that that points this out and

1365
00:46:11,030 --> 00:46:10,400
and it goes like this train yourself

1366
00:46:13,990 --> 00:46:11,040
this way

1367
00:46:15,030 --> 00:46:14,000
is what this wise sage is telling

1368
00:46:16,069 --> 00:46:15,040
someone who's trying to learn to be

1369
00:46:18,630 --> 00:46:16,079
enlightened

1370
00:46:21,510 --> 00:46:18,640
and he says train yourself in this way

1371
00:46:25,750 --> 00:46:21,520
in the scene

1372
00:46:31,349 --> 00:46:29,750
in the herd there will merely be what is

1373
00:46:34,710 --> 00:46:31,359
heard

1374
00:46:38,309 --> 00:46:34,720
in the thought there will merely

1375
00:46:41,349 --> 00:46:38,319
be the thought and so on through the

1376
00:46:43,589 --> 00:46:41,359
six senses which the sixth is mind

1377
00:46:44,550 --> 00:46:43,599
and the idea there is notice what isn't

1378
00:46:47,990 --> 00:46:44,560
there

1379
00:46:51,430 --> 00:46:48,000
is a you an i

1380
00:46:53,270 --> 00:46:51,440
a perceiver when they say in the scene

1381
00:46:54,390 --> 00:46:53,280
there will merely be what is seen it

1382
00:46:57,589 --> 00:46:54,400
means that

1383
00:46:59,829 --> 00:46:57,599
there is just seeing so this cup

1384
00:47:00,950 --> 00:46:59,839
is just this self-knowing

1385
00:47:04,230 --> 00:47:00,960
self-illuminating

1386
00:47:07,990 --> 00:47:04,240
happening now when you drop into

1387
00:47:10,550 --> 00:47:08,000
that state the self cannot be found

1388
00:47:11,510 --> 00:47:10,560
there's no eye having the experience

1389
00:47:15,510 --> 00:47:11,520
experience

1390
00:47:16,069 --> 00:47:15,520
is experiencing appearances appearancing

1391
00:47:20,470 --> 00:47:16,079
and

1392
00:47:23,270 --> 00:47:20,480
that feels like a kind of sense of

1393
00:47:25,990 --> 00:47:23,280
agency that is very different

1394
00:47:26,710 --> 00:47:26,000
than what we classically call free will

1395
00:47:29,109 --> 00:47:26,720
because there's

1396
00:47:31,349 --> 00:47:29,119
nobody making the decisions that things

1397
00:47:34,390 --> 00:47:31,359
are happening things are just happening

1398
00:47:37,270 --> 00:47:34,400
to no one but there's a sense

1399
00:47:37,990 --> 00:47:37,280
of an is-ness where everything is just

1400
00:47:39,829 --> 00:47:38,000
okay

1401
00:47:44,150 --> 00:47:39,839
it's very hard to put into words in fact

1402
00:47:47,349 --> 00:47:46,150
so this is not saying that there is no

1403
00:47:48,630 --> 00:47:47,359
self this is saying that

1404
00:47:50,710 --> 00:47:48,640
the thoughts that you traditionally

1405
00:47:54,230 --> 00:47:50,720
identify with yourself are not you

1406
00:47:56,390 --> 00:47:54,240
something like that or is is this an

1407
00:47:57,270 --> 00:47:56,400
a statement for the dissolution of the

1408
00:48:01,190 --> 00:47:57,280
idea of self

1409
00:48:06,790 --> 00:48:01,200
at all so it's even beyond that

1410
00:48:08,710 --> 00:48:06,800
it's that there's no experiencer

1411
00:48:10,069 --> 00:48:08,720
so do you know how rupert spyro will

1412
00:48:12,870 --> 00:48:10,079
talk about

1413
00:48:13,430 --> 00:48:12,880
step back as be the awareness the sense

1414
00:48:16,950 --> 00:48:13,440
of i

1415
00:48:20,069 --> 00:48:16,960
am the consciousness is what we are

1416
00:48:23,589 --> 00:48:20,079
is his one of his teachings right

1417
00:48:26,990 --> 00:48:23,599
there's a step beyond that which is even

1418
00:48:28,630 --> 00:48:27,000
consciousness as a subject as an

1419
00:48:31,349 --> 00:48:28,640
experiencer

1420
00:48:33,030 --> 00:48:31,359
disappears and then even the idea of

1421
00:48:36,390 --> 00:48:33,040
self

1422
00:48:38,950 --> 00:48:36,400
it's it's nowhere to be found there's no

1423
00:48:39,990 --> 00:48:38,960
you there and and it's very hard to put

1424
00:48:43,589 --> 00:48:40,000
into words but

1425
00:48:46,950 --> 00:48:43,599
what that feels like is

1426
00:48:50,390 --> 00:48:46,960
things happening and that includes sound

1427
00:48:53,990 --> 00:48:50,400
sight hearing smell taste and thoughts

1428
00:48:55,750 --> 00:48:54,000
so thoughts materialize and they're

1429
00:48:57,829 --> 00:48:55,760
they just are what they are so

1430
00:49:00,470 --> 00:48:57,839
everything is just appearing

1431
00:49:01,990 --> 00:49:00,480
but there's no subject and it's not even

1432
00:49:02,470 --> 00:49:02,000
that the idea disappears is that even

1433
00:49:04,390 --> 00:49:02,480
the co

1434
00:49:07,190 --> 00:49:04,400
there's nothing there it's just stuff

1435
00:49:10,790 --> 00:49:07,200
happening and the way that feels is

1436
00:49:12,630 --> 00:49:10,800
infinite okayness infinite freedom

1437
00:49:14,069 --> 00:49:12,640
and no suffering and the reason there's

1438
00:49:16,390 --> 00:49:14,079
no suffering is

1439
00:49:17,910 --> 00:49:16,400
who's the subject of suffering so even

1440
00:49:21,109 --> 00:49:17,920
if a painful sensation

1441
00:49:21,910 --> 00:49:21,119
arises it's just experienced in and of

1442
00:49:24,470 --> 00:49:21,920
itself

1443
00:49:25,990 --> 00:49:24,480
as exactly what was happening in its

1444
00:49:28,630 --> 00:49:26,000
right place

1445
00:49:29,990 --> 00:49:28,640
to no one which again it sounds crazy

1446
00:49:32,470 --> 00:49:30,000
when you try to put it into language

1447
00:49:35,750 --> 00:49:32,480
which by its nature is a dualizing

1448
00:49:37,910 --> 00:49:35,760
subject object construction when you say

1449
00:49:39,589 --> 00:49:37,920
that it feels okay who's it feeling okay

1450
00:49:43,190 --> 00:49:39,599
too why is there no

1451
00:49:45,990 --> 00:49:44,630
you could say it this way and again even

1452
00:49:47,109 --> 00:49:46,000
this is not doing it justice and people

1453
00:49:48,470 --> 00:49:47,119
who've had this experience are going to

1454
00:49:49,510 --> 00:49:48,480
be laughing at me going this asshole's

1455
00:49:51,589 --> 00:49:49,520
trying to explain this

1456
00:49:52,870 --> 00:49:51,599
in words and you can't i understand i

1457
00:49:53,670 --> 00:49:52,880
mean you can think of it you can think

1458
00:49:59,109 --> 00:49:53,680
of it

1459
00:50:03,670 --> 00:49:59,119
this way pain

1460
00:50:05,750 --> 00:50:03,680
is just it's a self-illuminating

1461
00:50:08,470 --> 00:50:05,760
process in other words it's a vibrating

1462
00:50:10,870 --> 00:50:08,480
field of experience that just

1463
00:50:12,069 --> 00:50:10,880
is in and of itself without the need for

1464
00:50:15,190 --> 00:50:12,079
a subject

1465
00:50:17,510 --> 00:50:15,200
so it's truly non-dual meaning not to

1466
00:50:18,710 --> 00:50:17,520
there's no subject and object there's

1467
00:50:21,349 --> 00:50:18,720
just this so

1468
00:50:22,069 --> 00:50:21,359
if we were to just stare at this you

1469
00:50:25,109 --> 00:50:22,079
know

1470
00:50:26,630 --> 00:50:25,119
this object attention in a way the beam

1471
00:50:27,910 --> 00:50:26,640
of attention that feels like it's coming

1472
00:50:31,109 --> 00:50:27,920
from a subject to an

1473
00:50:31,670 --> 00:50:31,119
object that evaporates and the object

1474
00:50:34,950 --> 00:50:31,680
just

1475
00:50:38,630 --> 00:50:34,960
radiates its own being

1476
00:50:40,230 --> 00:50:38,640
in a way that feels more real than

1477
00:50:42,549 --> 00:50:40,240
anything that you

1478
00:50:44,150 --> 00:50:42,559
could experience as an experiencer and

1479
00:50:44,950 --> 00:50:44,160
the thing is to come from that state and

1480
00:50:48,150 --> 00:50:44,960
then try to

1481
00:50:50,630 --> 00:50:48,160
describe it is absolutely not

1482
00:50:51,510 --> 00:50:50,640
possible all you can do is point with

1483
00:50:54,710 --> 00:50:51,520
words

1484
00:50:56,230 --> 00:50:54,720
to evoke that natural state in people

1485
00:50:58,309 --> 00:50:56,240
but even that you have to be really good

1486
00:50:59,670 --> 00:50:58,319
at that like rupert's very good at that

1487
00:51:01,430 --> 00:50:59,680
there are people that can point very

1488
00:51:03,990 --> 00:51:01,440
directly muji on youtube is

1489
00:51:04,470 --> 00:51:04,000
very very good at pointing very directly

1490
00:51:06,309 --> 00:51:04,480
um

1491
00:51:07,750 --> 00:51:06,319
adi ashanti might be good at pointing

1492
00:51:09,109 --> 00:51:07,760
very directly

1493
00:51:11,670 --> 00:51:09,119
and and when you experience it and

1494
00:51:13,109 --> 00:51:11,680
people experience it in flow state oh my

1495
00:51:15,109 --> 00:51:13,119
i disappeared and things were just

1496
00:51:15,589 --> 00:51:15,119
happening it was this just beautiful

1497
00:51:17,430 --> 00:51:15,599
flow

1498
00:51:19,190 --> 00:51:17,440
and all they come back and go i want

1499
00:51:21,190 --> 00:51:19,200
that again because

1500
00:51:22,710 --> 00:51:21,200
when you experience it you have this

1501
00:51:23,190 --> 00:51:22,720
weird intuition and again who is this

1502
00:51:24,870 --> 00:51:23,200
you

1503
00:51:26,710 --> 00:51:24,880
language will fail us there's an

1504
00:51:28,630 --> 00:51:26,720
intuition that this is what

1505
00:51:30,870 --> 00:51:28,640
everybody's been talking about and

1506
00:51:33,349 --> 00:51:30,880
seeking throughout all time

1507
00:51:34,390 --> 00:51:33,359
when we look at any spiritual or wisdom

1508
00:51:37,750 --> 00:51:34,400
pursuit

1509
00:51:39,510 --> 00:51:37,760
and i've only had sort of unstable

1510
00:51:40,870 --> 00:51:39,520
short-term glimpses of this and when

1511
00:51:42,950 --> 00:51:40,880
i've come back i've been like

1512
00:51:44,790 --> 00:51:42,960
oh the ego immediately reasserts itself

1513
00:51:46,069 --> 00:51:44,800
and goes oh i'm the guy that had that

1514
00:51:47,589 --> 00:51:46,079
experience that was dope

1515
00:51:48,630 --> 00:51:47,599
i'm gonna tell stories about it right

1516
00:51:50,230 --> 00:51:48,640
it's really interesting but in the

1517
00:51:53,349 --> 00:51:50,240
moment you're just like

1518
00:51:56,790 --> 00:51:53,359
it's just pure wonder

1519
00:51:57,990 --> 00:51:56,800
personless just oh and

1520
00:51:59,670 --> 00:51:58,000
then you come back and the mind comes

1521
00:52:00,230 --> 00:51:59,680
and tells a story about it because it

1522
00:52:02,069 --> 00:52:00,240
has to

1523
00:52:03,589 --> 00:52:02,079
there's nothing else it can do he has no

1524
00:52:05,349 --> 00:52:03,599
words for it you made

1525
00:52:07,750 --> 00:52:05,359
an argument as to why we shouldn't

1526
00:52:09,430 --> 00:52:07,760
experience pain when we're in that state

1527
00:52:11,270 --> 00:52:09,440
you use the word vibration i don't

1528
00:52:13,670 --> 00:52:11,280
recall what the exact

1529
00:52:15,589 --> 00:52:13,680
statement was but why can't we not use

1530
00:52:17,430 --> 00:52:15,599
that same argument to say that

1531
00:52:18,950 --> 00:52:17,440
even the feeling of bliss when you're in

1532
00:52:22,309 --> 00:52:18,960
that state is an illusion

1533
00:52:25,270 --> 00:52:22,319
and there's no bliss either so i

1534
00:52:25,990 --> 00:52:25,280
i would put it this way all that is in

1535
00:52:28,470 --> 00:52:26,000
that state

1536
00:52:30,390 --> 00:52:28,480
is what is so the raw experience the

1537
00:52:31,349 --> 00:52:30,400
unfiltered reality of what's happening

1538
00:52:33,109 --> 00:52:31,359
at that moment

1539
00:52:35,190 --> 00:52:33,119
and whether it's a sensory experience

1540
00:52:37,430 --> 00:52:35,200
like the sensation of pain

1541
00:52:39,589 --> 00:52:37,440
we call it pain because we apply this

1542
00:52:41,829 --> 00:52:39,599
conceptual label to that experience

1543
00:52:43,270 --> 00:52:41,839
we say pain which has a charge of

1544
00:52:46,549 --> 00:52:43,280
valence of negative

1545
00:52:48,150 --> 00:52:46,559
and then a response of avoidance or

1546
00:52:49,990 --> 00:52:48,160
projecting a thought into the future

1547
00:52:52,069 --> 00:52:50,000
when will this pain go away

1548
00:52:55,349 --> 00:52:52,079
or a memory oh this feels like that time

1549
00:52:58,710 --> 00:52:55,359
i had you know appendicitis or whatever

1550
00:53:02,069 --> 00:52:58,720
without all that overlay it's just

1551
00:53:04,470 --> 00:53:02,079
this sensation happening in

1552
00:53:06,150 --> 00:53:04,480
now to no one and that's the other thing

1553
00:53:08,150 --> 00:53:06,160
is time

1554
00:53:09,750 --> 00:53:08,160
is not even if there's no

1555
00:53:12,069 --> 00:53:09,760
conceptualization of time

1556
00:53:13,109 --> 00:53:12,079
so it's just all happening as a kind of

1557
00:53:14,710 --> 00:53:13,119
a wave

1558
00:53:16,710 --> 00:53:14,720
right now now that can sound

1559
00:53:18,470 --> 00:53:16,720
disconcerting and actually anyone who's

1560
00:53:20,549 --> 00:53:18,480
done psychedelics at any point

1561
00:53:22,549 --> 00:53:20,559
may have had experiences like this and

1562
00:53:23,589 --> 00:53:22,559
then come back to sobriety and said oh

1563
00:53:26,710 --> 00:53:23,599
man i was just

1564
00:53:27,510 --> 00:53:26,720
tripping balls but what you may have

1565
00:53:31,750 --> 00:53:27,520
touched into

1566
00:53:34,390 --> 00:53:31,760
is the timeless nature of raw experience

1567
00:53:35,030 --> 00:53:34,400
without the conceptual overlay and what

1568
00:53:37,750 --> 00:53:35,040
that

1569
00:53:39,589 --> 00:53:37,760
feels like to a mind when it comes back

1570
00:53:41,670 --> 00:53:39,599
is oh i was tripping balls

1571
00:53:43,030 --> 00:53:41,680
right but in reality it's really one of

1572
00:53:44,870 --> 00:53:43,040
the most natural

1573
00:53:46,950 --> 00:53:44,880
it's probably the natural state prior to

1574
00:53:48,950 --> 00:53:46,960
mind imposing itself

1575
00:53:50,630 --> 00:53:48,960
in in my opinion because i can only

1576
00:53:52,870 --> 00:53:50,640
speak from my own experience

1577
00:53:54,549 --> 00:53:52,880
well you can't speak for your own

1578
00:53:55,670 --> 00:53:54,559
experience if there's no you

1579
00:53:57,750 --> 00:53:55,680
so when you say that that's just a

1580
00:53:58,230 --> 00:53:57,760
linguistic device it's a linguistic

1581
00:54:00,390 --> 00:53:58,240
device

1582
00:54:02,309 --> 00:54:00,400
exactly and by the way kurt so people

1583
00:54:04,230 --> 00:54:02,319
the the non-dual people do these

1584
00:54:05,750 --> 00:54:04,240
linguistic gymnastics around trying to

1585
00:54:06,230 --> 00:54:05,760
not use the word eye and all that that's

1586
00:54:09,589 --> 00:54:06,240
dumb

1587
00:54:12,470 --> 00:54:09,599
i think language is designed for

1588
00:54:14,150 --> 00:54:12,480
a wee space right so you have to use

1589
00:54:15,990 --> 00:54:14,160
language to try to describe something

1590
00:54:18,230 --> 00:54:16,000
undescribable and all you can do is

1591
00:54:19,030 --> 00:54:18,240
point in the direction only you can kind

1592
00:54:21,990 --> 00:54:19,040
of

1593
00:54:22,309 --> 00:54:22,000
have the experience the and by you even

1594
00:54:24,309 --> 00:54:22,319
that

1595
00:54:28,150 --> 00:54:24,319
right you see where the language fails

1596
00:54:32,630 --> 00:54:30,630
are you of the belief that what lies at

1597
00:54:35,270 --> 00:54:32,640
the immaterial fundamental level is

1598
00:54:37,910 --> 00:54:35,280
something like a non-dual

1599
00:54:40,950 --> 00:54:37,920
vellum just this one sheet and it's

1600
00:54:45,990 --> 00:54:44,069
it's so hard to make metaphysical

1601
00:54:47,349 --> 00:54:46,000
onological claims about the nature of

1602
00:54:50,390 --> 00:54:47,359
reality

1603
00:54:51,910 --> 00:54:50,400
without invoking belief because

1604
00:54:54,390 --> 00:54:51,920
you said it their belief is it your

1605
00:54:56,150 --> 00:54:54,400
belief and belief is another thought

1606
00:55:00,069 --> 00:54:56,160
it's another conceptual label on

1607
00:55:02,309 --> 00:55:00,079
experience i would say this

1608
00:55:03,670 --> 00:55:02,319
i've been un so from an intellectual

1609
00:55:06,150 --> 00:55:03,680
side i've been uncompelled by the

1610
00:55:07,990 --> 00:55:06,160
materialist paradigm

1611
00:55:09,670 --> 00:55:08,000
yeah that that and feel free to

1612
00:55:11,109 --> 00:55:09,680
interrupt me yeah i was going to say you

1613
00:55:12,309 --> 00:55:11,119
mentioned that belief is a conceptual

1614
00:55:13,510 --> 00:55:12,319
thought i don't buy that

1615
00:55:15,109 --> 00:55:13,520
i don't think that that's the case i

1616
00:55:16,390 --> 00:55:15,119
think that we think it is and i think

1617
00:55:20,710 --> 00:55:16,400
that's part of the problem

1618
00:55:25,030 --> 00:55:20,720
because for example if you say i believe

1619
00:55:27,270 --> 00:55:25,040
that i'm in a i believe the stove is

1620
00:55:28,390 --> 00:55:27,280
is not hot but then you say well put

1621
00:55:29,829 --> 00:55:28,400
your hand on it then

1622
00:55:31,109 --> 00:55:29,839
it's red and then you're like no no i'm

1623
00:55:32,150 --> 00:55:31,119
not going to i would say you believe

1624
00:55:34,230 --> 00:55:32,160
with your body

1625
00:55:35,910 --> 00:55:34,240
your actions belie your beliefs so what

1626
00:55:36,230 --> 00:55:35,920
you say with your mouth doesn't match

1627
00:55:37,510 --> 00:55:36,240
what

1628
00:55:39,270 --> 00:55:37,520
doesn't match your actions and your

1629
00:55:41,670 --> 00:55:39,280
actions are your true test of belief

1630
00:55:42,630 --> 00:55:41,680
and if it's embodied then your beliefs

1631
00:55:47,430 --> 00:55:42,640
aren't simply con

1632
00:55:53,589 --> 00:55:52,069
so the unconscious response of the body

1633
00:55:55,190 --> 00:55:53,599
and remember i actually wonder whether

1634
00:55:56,470 --> 00:55:55,200
the body itself is not

1635
00:55:58,870 --> 00:55:56,480
just part of a continuum of

1636
00:56:02,230 --> 00:55:58,880
consciousness with its own

1637
00:56:03,270 --> 00:56:02,240
belief conditioning and maybe you may be

1638
00:56:05,670 --> 00:56:03,280
right that it's not a

1639
00:56:06,549 --> 00:56:05,680
thought-based conceptual thing as much

1640
00:56:08,950 --> 00:56:06,559
as it is an

1641
00:56:11,030 --> 00:56:08,960
overlay on experience because let's

1642
00:56:12,630 --> 00:56:11,040
think of it this way

1643
00:56:14,390 --> 00:56:12,640
i don't believe okay let's take the

1644
00:56:15,430 --> 00:56:14,400
belief out of it putting my hand on that

1645
00:56:18,470 --> 00:56:15,440
hot stove

1646
00:56:21,670 --> 00:56:18,480
right i'm going to do it now right

1647
00:56:22,789 --> 00:56:21,680
okay my belief from conditioning from

1648
00:56:25,109 --> 00:56:22,799
experience

1649
00:56:27,030 --> 00:56:25,119
and from what what the body is

1650
00:56:29,109 --> 00:56:27,040
autonomically telling me that's been

1651
00:56:31,829 --> 00:56:29,119
conditioned into my unconscious

1652
00:56:32,789 --> 00:56:31,839
for into my reflex patterns right is

1653
00:56:35,589 --> 00:56:32,799
this is bad

1654
00:56:37,990 --> 00:56:35,599
this hurts must stop not good okay

1655
00:56:39,510 --> 00:56:38,000
there's the belief component of it

1656
00:56:41,270 --> 00:56:39,520
in a in a if i didn't have those

1657
00:56:44,630 --> 00:56:41,280
reflexes

1658
00:56:47,750 --> 00:56:44,640
and i'm experiencing unfiltered reality

1659
00:56:50,470 --> 00:56:47,760
i would just experience the

1660
00:56:51,430 --> 00:56:50,480
vibrating temperature field of that

1661
00:56:53,510 --> 00:56:51,440
experience

1662
00:56:54,789 --> 00:56:53,520
which the mind would then say this is

1663
00:56:55,670 --> 00:56:54,799
terrible you need to stop now you're

1664
00:56:57,109 --> 00:56:55,680
dying and

1665
00:56:58,549 --> 00:56:57,119
you would then smell the burning flesh

1666
00:56:59,190 --> 00:56:58,559
which would be a pure sensory experience

1667
00:57:00,870 --> 00:56:59,200
so

1668
00:57:03,190 --> 00:57:00,880
in other words there's a

1669
00:57:06,390 --> 00:57:03,200
conceptualization that the mind does

1670
00:57:09,030 --> 00:57:06,400
to raw data from from the sense field

1671
00:57:10,150 --> 00:57:09,040
that's necessary and it's so fundamental

1672
00:57:12,870 --> 00:57:10,160
to us being human

1673
00:57:14,309 --> 00:57:12,880
that that you're you're saying well i

1674
00:57:15,510 --> 00:57:14,319
think it's more fundamental than that is

1675
00:57:17,109 --> 00:57:15,520
not wrong

1676
00:57:19,109 --> 00:57:17,119
i just think there's one level even

1677
00:57:20,789 --> 00:57:19,119
beyond more fundamental than that and

1678
00:57:23,270 --> 00:57:20,799
that's just the raw

1679
00:57:24,230 --> 00:57:23,280
unfiltered reality that that just is and

1680
00:57:26,309 --> 00:57:24,240
we couldn't function

1681
00:57:27,750 --> 00:57:26,319
i think just experiencing unfiltered

1682
00:57:28,950 --> 00:57:27,760
reality like that all the time we

1683
00:57:29,430 --> 00:57:28,960
wouldn't be able to get across the

1684
00:57:31,190 --> 00:57:29,440
street

1685
00:57:38,309 --> 00:57:31,200
which is why i think these structures of

1686
00:57:41,510 --> 00:57:40,230
i understand that one can get to a place

1687
00:57:45,829 --> 00:57:41,520
where one

1688
00:57:51,829 --> 00:57:48,950
there is no pain and but

1689
00:57:53,430 --> 00:57:51,839
to me that's a different claim than

1690
00:57:55,190 --> 00:57:53,440
saying that there is no pain

1691
00:57:56,470 --> 00:57:55,200
that's the claim that i get i've gotten

1692
00:57:58,069 --> 00:57:56,480
to a place where i experience

1693
00:58:00,309 --> 00:57:58,079
no pain where traditionally pain would

1694
00:58:01,670 --> 00:58:00,319
be felt like these buddhist monks who

1695
00:58:05,190 --> 00:58:01,680
can light themselves

1696
00:58:06,150 --> 00:58:05,200
on fire that's that to me seems like

1697
00:58:07,030 --> 00:58:06,160
well what i'm about to say is

1698
00:58:08,710 --> 00:58:07,040
contradictory but

1699
00:58:10,390 --> 00:58:08,720
that to me seems like an adaptive

1700
00:58:13,829 --> 00:58:10,400
strategy rather than an

1701
00:58:15,990 --> 00:58:13,839
ontological claim like one can

1702
00:58:18,470 --> 00:58:16,000
it's like a tool meditation may even be

1703
00:58:20,549 --> 00:58:18,480
a tool rather than

1704
00:58:22,069 --> 00:58:20,559
and we're mixing up the tool with a

1705
00:58:23,270 --> 00:58:22,079
claim about reality i don't know i'm

1706
00:58:25,510 --> 00:58:23,280
just saying that

1707
00:58:34,829 --> 00:58:25,520
i'm unconvinced in each direction now

1708
00:58:34,839 --> 00:58:38,390
when

1709
00:58:43,750 --> 00:58:41,990
given that the mind is self-deceptive

1710
00:58:45,589 --> 00:58:43,760
and we know this and experience is

1711
00:58:47,109 --> 00:58:45,599
fallible or at least the inferences

1712
00:58:50,150 --> 00:58:47,119
drawn from experiences

1713
00:58:51,589 --> 00:58:50,160
are fallible then why would one make the

1714
00:58:52,950 --> 00:58:51,599
claim that just because i can get to a

1715
00:58:53,510 --> 00:58:52,960
state where i feel like the self is an

1716
00:58:57,510 --> 00:58:53,520
illusion

1717
00:58:57,910 --> 00:58:57,520
the self seems to be the most pernicious

1718
00:59:02,710 --> 00:58:57,920
and

1719
00:59:06,309 --> 00:59:02,720
we've dispensed with it how do you know

1720
00:59:07,750 --> 00:59:06,319
that that's itself is not an illusion

1721
00:59:10,069 --> 00:59:07,760
right so this gets to the question of

1722
00:59:11,510 --> 00:59:10,079
like where how deep do you have to go

1723
00:59:12,710 --> 00:59:11,520
before you can convince yourself that

1724
00:59:15,829 --> 00:59:12,720
something

1725
00:59:16,870 --> 00:59:15,839
isn't illusory and i think

1726
00:59:18,870 --> 00:59:16,880
neuroscientists

1727
00:59:20,390 --> 00:59:18,880
i think could say well there's no seat

1728
00:59:23,750 --> 00:59:20,400
of the self even

1729
00:59:26,470 --> 00:59:23,760
neuro neurophysiologically there's no

1730
00:59:27,349 --> 00:59:26,480
little homunculus in the mind where it's

1731
00:59:29,109 --> 00:59:27,359
it's the

1732
00:59:30,150 --> 00:59:29,119
thing that's the point where you know

1733
00:59:31,750 --> 00:59:30,160
you're sitting behind your mind you can

1734
00:59:32,470 --> 00:59:31,760
look at default mode network and go okay

1735
00:59:35,430 --> 00:59:32,480
a lot of our

1736
00:59:38,309 --> 00:59:35,440
our discursive thought about self our

1737
00:59:39,990 --> 00:59:38,319
ideas of self and our inward ruminations

1738
00:59:41,829 --> 00:59:40,000
uh kind of originate in the default mode

1739
00:59:42,789 --> 00:59:41,839
network which itself is not a point it's

1740
00:59:44,950 --> 00:59:42,799
a diffuse

1741
00:59:47,109 --> 00:59:44,960
kind of body of things and there are

1742
00:59:49,829 --> 00:59:47,119
aspects of that even

1743
00:59:50,950 --> 00:59:49,839
i actually think that and again it so

1744
00:59:52,309 --> 00:59:50,960
some of this comes from

1745
00:59:54,390 --> 00:59:52,319
experiencing these states and the

1746
00:59:55,670 --> 00:59:54,400
question is how what what truth can you

1747
00:59:57,349 --> 00:59:55,680
pull out of that

1748
00:59:58,950 --> 00:59:57,359
and when you talk about even meditation

1749
00:59:59,589 --> 00:59:58,960
as a tool like you're lighting yourself

1750
01:00:01,270 --> 00:59:59,599
on fire

1751
01:00:02,789 --> 01:00:01,280
i think there is a component of you can

1752
01:00:04,309 --> 01:00:02,799
there are meditative practices and

1753
01:00:05,030 --> 01:00:04,319
genres and things like that where you

1754
01:00:07,589 --> 01:00:05,040
can

1755
01:00:09,589 --> 01:00:07,599
actually you get very good at ignoring

1756
01:00:10,630 --> 01:00:09,599
sensory stimulation to where it doesn't

1757
01:00:12,710 --> 01:00:10,640
distract you

1758
01:00:15,109 --> 01:00:12,720
and that's very different than allowing

1759
01:00:17,349 --> 01:00:15,119
yourself to experience the raw

1760
01:00:18,470 --> 01:00:17,359
experience of being on fire and doing

1761
01:00:20,150 --> 01:00:18,480
nothing about it

1762
01:00:21,589 --> 01:00:20,160
so again without having gone through

1763
01:00:23,030 --> 01:00:21,599
that it's very hard to investigate

1764
01:00:24,789 --> 01:00:23,040
because the way you would have to

1765
01:00:26,870 --> 01:00:24,799
there's no way to investigate these

1766
01:00:29,510 --> 01:00:26,880
easily without doing it

1767
01:00:30,630 --> 01:00:29,520
introspectively because it refers to

1768
01:00:32,390 --> 01:00:30,640
interstates

1769
01:00:34,470 --> 01:00:32,400
but then how much can you extrapolate

1770
01:00:35,990 --> 01:00:34,480
out and i think harris struggles with

1771
01:00:37,190 --> 01:00:36,000
this so he'll always put the disclaimer

1772
01:00:38,309 --> 01:00:37,200
well you know i'm making no claims about

1773
01:00:38,789 --> 01:00:38,319
the nature of the universe i'm just

1774
01:00:40,789 --> 01:00:38,799
saying this

1775
01:00:41,990 --> 01:00:40,799
whereas deepak chopra takes the opposite

1776
01:00:44,230 --> 01:00:42,000
tact and says well

1777
01:00:46,309 --> 01:00:44,240
because i've experienced this in

1778
01:00:46,950 --> 01:00:46,319
meditation it must be true of the whole

1779
01:00:50,309 --> 01:00:46,960
universe

1780
01:00:51,990 --> 01:00:50,319
right and i think both of those are very

1781
01:00:53,750 --> 01:00:52,000
extreme statements i think what you have

1782
01:00:55,589 --> 01:00:53,760
to do is you have to kind of

1783
01:00:57,589 --> 01:00:55,599
again approach it scientifically and say

1784
01:00:58,710 --> 01:00:57,599
okay so what what would a materialist

1785
01:01:01,670 --> 01:00:58,720
paradigm say about

1786
01:01:02,230 --> 01:01:01,680
the nature of self is the self a real

1787
01:01:03,670 --> 01:01:02,240
thing

1788
01:01:05,750 --> 01:01:03,680
well i think even materialists will say

1789
01:01:08,390 --> 01:01:05,760
well no it's probably a construction

1790
01:01:10,069 --> 01:01:08,400
that's made by neurochemical processes

1791
01:01:13,829 --> 01:01:10,079
in the brain that themselves are not

1792
01:01:16,470 --> 01:01:13,839
conscious so how is that any more real

1793
01:01:18,549 --> 01:01:16,480
than saying yeah the self is actually a

1794
01:01:20,710 --> 01:01:18,559
mind construct made up of thought

1795
01:01:21,910 --> 01:01:20,720
belief and it's a very tight web of

1796
01:01:22,710 --> 01:01:21,920
thought going to thought going to

1797
01:01:24,230 --> 01:01:22,720
thought

1798
01:01:26,230 --> 01:01:24,240
that's conditioned from birth that's all

1799
01:01:26,789 --> 01:01:26,240
made of consciousness and it can be seen

1800
01:01:30,230 --> 01:01:26,799
through

1801
01:01:30,710 --> 01:01:30,240
it can actually relax it never goes away

1802
01:01:33,829 --> 01:01:30,720
really

1803
01:01:37,589 --> 01:01:33,839
it can relax and get out of the way of

1804
01:01:39,829 --> 01:01:37,599
raw experience i'm not sure there's a

1805
01:01:42,309 --> 01:01:39,839
big distinction there i i

1806
01:01:43,910 --> 01:01:42,319
which is why i'm increasingly convinced

1807
01:01:48,710 --> 01:01:43,920
that

1808
01:01:52,230 --> 01:01:48,720
say spiritual awakening

1809
01:01:55,510 --> 01:01:52,240
really a big piece of that i think

1810
01:01:59,349 --> 01:01:55,520
is the dropping away off the

1811
01:02:02,150 --> 01:01:59,359
false sense that i am this

1812
01:02:03,190 --> 01:02:02,160
to go to the next level of i am this

1813
01:02:06,069 --> 01:02:03,200
which is

1814
01:02:08,470 --> 01:02:06,079
consciousness itself and then even that

1815
01:02:13,589 --> 01:02:08,480
collapses into

1816
01:02:16,950 --> 01:02:13,599
what i am nothing just this

1817
01:02:19,829 --> 01:02:16,960
so just this happening

1818
01:02:21,430 --> 01:02:19,839
and it you this is where you can't even

1819
01:02:25,670 --> 01:02:21,440
open your mouth about it

1820
01:02:27,670 --> 01:02:25,680
because there's no you to

1821
01:02:29,190 --> 01:02:27,680
and i think that look look kurt like if

1822
01:02:30,470 --> 01:02:29,200
this were easy to talk about

1823
01:02:32,390 --> 01:02:30,480
it'd be one of those things we'd all be

1824
01:02:33,829 --> 01:02:32,400
pretty awake because we just in school

1825
01:02:34,549 --> 01:02:33,839
we'd be like okay so here's the thing

1826
01:02:36,870 --> 01:02:34,559
all right

1827
01:02:38,870 --> 01:02:36,880
do these three things yourself drops

1828
01:02:42,710 --> 01:02:38,880
away you see truth as it is

1829
01:02:45,349 --> 01:02:42,720
if only yeah yeah okay i'm unsure

1830
01:02:47,109 --> 01:02:45,359
i know that there's the claim of of what

1831
01:02:48,309 --> 01:02:47,119
one cannot speak of specifically one

1832
01:02:50,630 --> 01:02:48,319
must be silent

1833
01:02:51,349 --> 01:02:50,640
that's wittgenstein and it's also true

1834
01:02:55,029 --> 01:02:51,359
that

1835
01:02:57,430 --> 01:02:55,039
is not

1836
01:02:58,549 --> 01:02:57,440
sophisticated enough so for example go

1837
01:03:00,069 --> 01:02:58,559
back

1838
01:03:01,589 --> 01:03:00,079
ten thousand years well that's not

1839
01:03:02,870 --> 01:03:01,599
enough for grunts but let's go back to

1840
01:03:05,510 --> 01:03:02,880
caveman

1841
01:03:06,470 --> 01:03:05,520
era when they're grunts obviously they

1842
01:03:09,750 --> 01:03:06,480
lacked a level of

1843
01:03:10,870 --> 01:03:09,760
language that would

1844
01:03:15,510 --> 01:03:10,880
allow them to understand what a

1845
01:03:19,029 --> 01:03:17,670
or what any sufficiently comp almost

1846
01:03:20,549 --> 01:03:19,039
anything in this place they wouldn't be

1847
01:03:21,990 --> 01:03:20,559
able to understand it in the same way we

1848
01:03:23,510 --> 01:03:22,000
do because they don't have the language

1849
01:03:24,630 --> 01:03:23,520
for it so there's a relationship between

1850
01:03:26,630 --> 01:03:24,640
language and thought

1851
01:03:27,829 --> 01:03:26,640
and when people say that uh that well we

1852
01:03:29,190 --> 01:03:27,839
can't speak of it i

1853
01:03:30,630 --> 01:03:29,200
i say we can't speak of it now i'm not

1854
01:03:32,390 --> 01:03:30,640
saying that i don't think that

1855
01:03:34,069 --> 01:03:32,400
necessarily i don't see the reason why

1856
01:03:36,069 --> 01:03:34,079
language would necessarily

1857
01:03:37,829 --> 01:03:36,079
be incapable of expressing the thought

1858
01:03:40,630 --> 01:03:37,839
of

1859
01:03:42,549 --> 01:03:40,640
the thoughts that one gets to in these

1860
01:03:44,069 --> 01:03:42,559
meditative spaces

1861
01:03:46,150 --> 01:03:44,079
either way it doesn't matter that that

1862
01:03:47,670 --> 01:03:46,160
doesn't matter okay actually

1863
01:03:49,190 --> 01:03:47,680
i think i think that's an important

1864
01:03:51,589 --> 01:03:49,200
point that you bring up

1865
01:03:52,230 --> 01:03:51,599
because everything that you just talked

1866
01:03:55,829 --> 01:03:52,240
about

1867
01:03:57,109 --> 01:03:55,839
is coming at this state from a position

1868
01:03:58,870 --> 01:03:57,119
of mind

1869
01:04:00,549 --> 01:03:58,880
so in other words from the position of

1870
01:04:02,710 --> 01:04:00,559
the the

1871
01:04:03,750 --> 01:04:02,720
the linguistic mind which as you say is

1872
01:04:07,109 --> 01:04:03,760
this is important

1873
01:04:09,430 --> 01:04:07,119
cognition and language are not to

1874
01:04:11,109 --> 01:04:09,440
talk about non-dual they're directly

1875
01:04:12,549 --> 01:04:11,119
related in your documentary i think you

1876
01:04:14,069 --> 01:04:12,559
interviewed a dude

1877
01:04:15,589 --> 01:04:14,079
who was talking about that actually

1878
01:04:17,910 --> 01:04:15,599
quite directly uh

1879
01:04:18,870 --> 01:04:17,920
i'm forgetting his name now but this

1880
01:04:22,549 --> 01:04:18,880
idea that

1881
01:04:24,390 --> 01:04:22,559
so this is what i propose to you kurt um

1882
01:04:26,390 --> 01:04:24,400
you may be right like i can't disprove

1883
01:04:28,789 --> 01:04:26,400
what you're saying but i can

1884
01:04:30,390 --> 01:04:28,799
only say this from the experience of

1885
01:04:33,349 --> 01:04:30,400
that state

1886
01:04:34,230 --> 01:04:33,359
i can say pretty firmly coming back and

1887
01:04:37,990 --> 01:04:34,240
then using language

1888
01:04:41,190 --> 01:04:38,000
i said i i i it's not a

1889
01:04:43,029 --> 01:04:41,200
words thing uh and and the only way you

1890
01:04:45,029 --> 01:04:43,039
will be able to understand that argument

1891
01:04:47,750 --> 01:04:45,039
is by experiencing the state which again

1892
01:04:49,750 --> 01:04:47,760
is it's actually not difficult to get to

1893
01:04:51,270 --> 01:04:49,760
but you have to be pointed in a way

1894
01:04:54,230 --> 01:04:51,280
and open in a way and you have to almost

1895
01:04:56,309 --> 01:04:54,240
surrender the resistance of

1896
01:04:57,750 --> 01:04:56,319
all our conditioning which that's what

1897
01:04:59,430 --> 01:04:57,760
makes it hard and

1898
01:05:01,510 --> 01:04:59,440
i struggle with it i struggle and and

1899
01:05:04,150 --> 01:05:01,520
the problem is when you come back

1900
01:05:07,190 --> 01:05:04,160
to the standard mind state from that

1901
01:05:10,230 --> 01:05:07,200
more open surrendered

1902
01:05:11,109 --> 01:05:10,240
your mind starts to tell stories

1903
01:05:13,589 --> 01:05:11,119
immediately

1904
01:05:14,789 --> 01:05:13,599
about how you're not worthy to ever get

1905
01:05:17,430 --> 01:05:14,799
that back

1906
01:05:18,710 --> 01:05:17,440
so i completely understand at some point

1907
01:05:21,029 --> 01:05:18,720
if you just read the dictionary

1908
01:05:22,549 --> 01:05:21,039
only refers to other words so in a sense

1909
01:05:25,589 --> 01:05:22,559
almost every concept

1910
01:05:27,270 --> 01:05:25,599
needs what's extra linguistic because

1911
01:05:27,670 --> 01:05:27,280
you can't talk about what's bumpy let's

1912
01:05:29,349 --> 01:05:27,680
say

1913
01:05:31,270 --> 01:05:29,359
by reading the dictionary you have to

1914
01:05:34,549 --> 01:05:31,280
point to what's bumpy experience it

1915
01:05:37,109 --> 01:05:34,559
attach the label of bumpiness

1916
01:05:38,230 --> 01:05:37,119
so maybe because this these states are

1917
01:05:41,190 --> 01:05:38,240
so rare for

1918
01:05:41,430 --> 01:05:41,200
the majority of people attaching a name

1919
01:05:44,230 --> 01:05:41,440
is

1920
01:05:45,510 --> 01:05:44,240
extremely difficult if not impossible i

1921
01:05:48,069 --> 01:05:45,520
don't know if it's impossible

1922
01:05:49,029 --> 01:05:48,079
but i understand that it's difficult you

1923
01:05:50,630 --> 01:05:49,039
know what's interesting

1924
01:05:51,829 --> 01:05:50,640
in your again in your documentary going

1925
01:05:53,910 --> 01:05:51,839
back to this because i think because

1926
01:05:57,589 --> 01:05:53,920
let's see this is important

1927
01:05:59,670 --> 01:05:57,599
how do we we started off talking about

1928
01:06:01,829 --> 01:05:59,680
how are we going to how's the world

1929
01:06:04,789 --> 01:06:01,839
going to emerge better

1930
01:06:06,230 --> 01:06:04,799
systems if we don't actually understand

1931
01:06:08,630 --> 01:06:06,240
ourselves well

1932
01:06:10,470 --> 01:06:08,640
you know your theories of everything are

1933
01:06:12,230 --> 01:06:10,480
crucial but they have to include

1934
01:06:14,630 --> 01:06:12,240
the internal universe of human

1935
01:06:17,829 --> 01:06:14,640
experience i think that's my opinion

1936
01:06:19,670 --> 01:06:17,839
and and the question is how do we

1937
01:06:21,670 --> 01:06:19,680
develop ways to point to

1938
01:06:22,789 --> 01:06:21,680
these truths from people who've had

1939
01:06:25,029 --> 01:06:22,799
those

1940
01:06:26,390 --> 01:06:25,039
are operating from that position so

1941
01:06:26,950 --> 01:06:26,400
they're operating from that present

1942
01:06:29,750 --> 01:06:26,960
moment

1943
01:06:30,789 --> 01:06:29,760
sort of experience and i've met a couple

1944
01:06:33,990 --> 01:06:30,799
people who are

1945
01:06:37,510 --> 01:06:34,000
who do that and just talking to them can

1946
01:06:38,870 --> 01:06:37,520
evoke the state and

1947
01:06:41,190 --> 01:06:38,880
and i interviewed one of them angelo

1948
01:06:43,510 --> 01:06:41,200
delulo who's an anesthesiologist

1949
01:06:45,349 --> 01:06:43,520
he had an awakening in 97 since then

1950
01:06:49,109 --> 01:06:45,359
he's further 97

1951
01:06:51,029 --> 01:06:49,119
97 so he's my age he's 48

1952
01:06:52,870 --> 01:06:51,039
this is crazy talk about jealousy dude

1953
01:06:55,829 --> 01:06:52,880
talk about jealousy i was like

1954
01:06:57,109 --> 01:06:55,839
screw you buddy so the re but the reason

1955
01:07:00,230 --> 01:06:57,119
he had an awakening is he

1956
01:07:02,870 --> 01:07:00,240
suffered he was suffering so much

1957
01:07:05,589 --> 01:07:02,880
internally with all the just angst and

1958
01:07:08,950 --> 01:07:05,599
existential drugs 97 he was suffering

1959
01:07:12,150 --> 01:07:08,960
in in 1997. oh 1997.

1960
01:07:14,150 --> 01:07:12,160
not at the age of 97. sorry no no he's

1961
01:07:16,470 --> 01:07:14,160
he's my age but it was back in 97

1962
01:07:19,109 --> 01:07:16,480
and he never he had this experience

1963
01:07:22,470 --> 01:07:19,119
where the self-dissolved he was

1964
01:07:25,750 --> 01:07:22,480
pure emptiness like the substratum that

1965
01:07:27,270 --> 01:07:25,760
the universe appears from from nothing

1966
01:07:29,029 --> 01:07:27,280
uh the idea of buddhist emptiness

1967
01:07:30,870 --> 01:07:29,039
doesn't even even kind of touch what he

1968
01:07:33,670 --> 01:07:30,880
had experienced he told me and

1969
01:07:34,870 --> 01:07:33,680
this this then he never spoke of to

1970
01:07:35,750 --> 01:07:34,880
anyone because he found he couldn't say

1971
01:07:39,029 --> 01:07:35,760
a word about it

1972
01:07:40,549 --> 01:07:39,039
and it took him 20 years of further work

1973
01:07:42,069 --> 01:07:40,559
including going through medical school

1974
01:07:43,589 --> 01:07:42,079
becoming an anesthesiologist

1975
01:07:45,829 --> 01:07:43,599
like experiencing everything in the

1976
01:07:48,309 --> 01:07:45,839
human condition reasserting his

1977
01:07:50,150 --> 01:07:48,319
suffering and everything to be able to

1978
01:07:52,710 --> 01:07:50,160
better understand how to point to it and

1979
01:07:54,870 --> 01:07:52,720
even then he said it's really really

1980
01:07:57,829 --> 01:07:54,880
difficult but just being around

1981
01:07:59,349 --> 01:07:57,839
him can invoke those states at least it

1982
01:08:00,789 --> 01:07:59,359
does in many people who've talked to him

1983
01:08:02,390 --> 01:08:00,799
including myself because i had him in my

1984
01:08:03,829 --> 01:08:02,400
studio for two days straight

1985
01:08:05,430 --> 01:08:03,839
and i tell you i was walking around like

1986
01:08:07,349 --> 01:08:05,440
i was on lsd

1987
01:08:09,109 --> 01:08:07,359
for a good three days afterwards and

1988
01:08:11,750 --> 01:08:09,119
even my family was like

1989
01:08:13,990 --> 01:08:11,760
wow you're a different person it's

1990
01:08:16,950 --> 01:08:14,000
really a

1991
01:08:18,070 --> 01:08:16,960
it's a real thing and so how how would

1992
01:08:19,910 --> 01:08:18,080
we begin to use

1993
01:08:21,269 --> 01:08:19,920
language or the tools that we have to

1994
01:08:23,269 --> 01:08:21,279
try to

1995
01:08:24,550 --> 01:08:23,279
emerge that and i don't have the answers

1996
01:08:25,349 --> 01:08:24,560
for that but i think it's something we

1997
01:08:28,390 --> 01:08:25,359
ought to be

1998
01:08:29,669 --> 01:08:28,400
looking into with your cup it says

1999
01:08:30,709 --> 01:08:29,679
science the heck out of this or

2000
01:08:31,669 --> 01:08:30,719
something like that do you mind showing

2001
01:08:34,709 --> 01:08:31,679
it to the camera

2002
01:08:36,870 --> 01:08:34,719
sure it's uh science the crap out of it

2003
01:08:39,189 --> 01:08:36,880
right right right okay do you believe

2004
01:08:41,030 --> 01:08:39,199
that the reason why i say that

2005
01:08:42,709 --> 01:08:41,040
is because what you've just described

2006
01:08:44,789 --> 01:08:42,719
has almost nothing to do with science in

2007
01:08:46,870 --> 01:08:44,799
fact it seems anti-science to go

2008
01:08:48,470 --> 01:08:46,880
to one's experience the subjective

2009
01:08:51,349 --> 01:08:48,480
rather than the objective

2010
01:08:52,470 --> 01:08:51,359
so so what's the deal with that cup and

2011
01:08:54,390 --> 01:08:52,480
how can

2012
01:08:56,789 --> 01:08:54,400
do you when was that cup made was that

2013
01:08:59,829 --> 01:08:56,799
before this

2014
01:09:03,510 --> 01:08:59,839
three-day spa with this person nope

2015
01:09:08,789 --> 01:09:03,520
it's yes and science is absolutely

2016
01:09:12,149 --> 01:09:08,799
the study of the external third person

2017
01:09:15,749 --> 01:09:12,159
or internal singular physical physical

2018
01:09:17,510 --> 01:09:15,759
icon world and again to put it in

2019
01:09:20,870 --> 01:09:17,520
in buddhist language the causes and

2020
01:09:24,149 --> 01:09:20,880
conditions the dependent origination

2021
01:09:26,709 --> 01:09:24,159
what what are the rules of that why does

2022
01:09:27,910 --> 01:09:26,719
why does the manifest world behave the

2023
01:09:32,390 --> 01:09:27,920
way it does and

2024
01:09:34,229 --> 01:09:32,400
science and i'm a deep adherent of this

2025
01:09:35,990 --> 01:09:34,239
as a physician and as someone who

2026
01:09:36,550 --> 01:09:36,000
advocates science-based medicine and so

2027
01:09:39,990 --> 01:09:36,560
on

2028
01:09:43,189 --> 01:09:40,000
but that is a yes and so

2029
01:09:43,829 --> 01:09:43,199
even trans-rational thought it's not

2030
01:09:45,430 --> 01:09:43,839
thought

2031
01:09:47,510 --> 01:09:45,440
this experience of like well okay so

2032
01:09:50,149 --> 01:09:47,520
what's the sub-stratum then that even

2033
01:09:50,789 --> 01:09:50,159
encompasses science and that's what i'm

2034
01:09:52,550 --> 01:09:50,799
pointing out

2035
01:09:54,950 --> 01:09:52,560
with what i'm saying but science is

2036
01:09:55,830 --> 01:09:54,960
still absolutely valid at that relative

2037
01:09:57,830 --> 01:09:55,840
level of

2038
01:09:59,189 --> 01:09:57,840
existence which is what matters to most

2039
01:10:01,750 --> 01:09:59,199
humans because

2040
01:10:03,270 --> 01:10:01,760
like us even being able to talk is

2041
01:10:04,470 --> 01:10:03,280
understandings of quantum mechanics and

2042
01:10:07,990 --> 01:10:04,480
understandings of electro

2043
01:10:09,910 --> 01:10:08,000
electronics and wi-fi and all that so

2044
01:10:11,510 --> 01:10:09,920
and medicine so this is where it gets

2045
01:10:14,070 --> 01:10:11,520
the intersection with medicine

2046
01:10:15,750 --> 01:10:14,080
medicine has gone a long way using the

2047
01:10:17,110 --> 01:10:15,760
reductionist scientific method

2048
01:10:17,830 --> 01:10:17,120
reductionist meaning and that's a very

2049
01:10:19,669 --> 01:10:17,840
charged word

2050
01:10:21,590 --> 01:10:19,679
i don't really like it it's more saying

2051
01:10:23,350 --> 01:10:21,600
okay we're it's a materialist paradigm

2052
01:10:24,470 --> 01:10:23,360
there are receptors and gates and

2053
01:10:27,830 --> 01:10:24,480
molecules

2054
01:10:30,550 --> 01:10:27,840
dna and so on and if we understand that

2055
01:10:32,229 --> 01:10:30,560
we'll be able to do anything in medicine

2056
01:10:33,510 --> 01:10:32,239
and i actually disagree because i think

2057
01:10:35,990 --> 01:10:33,520
what we're seeing there

2058
01:10:37,590 --> 01:10:36,000
is what hoffman calls our interface and

2059
01:10:39,750 --> 01:10:37,600
we can get narrow and narrower in terms

2060
01:10:42,070 --> 01:10:39,760
of the pixel density of the interface

2061
01:10:43,910 --> 01:10:42,080
but at some point we cannot get down

2062
01:10:45,669 --> 01:10:43,920
underneath it to the transistors and

2063
01:10:48,390 --> 01:10:45,679
electron gates that are actually

2064
01:10:49,669 --> 01:10:48,400
running the desktop so that's where the

2065
01:10:52,149 --> 01:10:49,679
understanding of awareness

2066
01:10:53,030 --> 01:10:52,159
consciousness and introspection is the

2067
01:10:55,030 --> 01:10:53,040
next

2068
01:10:56,390 --> 01:10:55,040
science for lack of a better term i'm so

2069
01:10:57,910 --> 01:10:56,400
glad you talked about this

2070
01:10:59,910 --> 01:10:57,920
zubin something i've been thinking about

2071
01:11:01,030 --> 01:10:59,920
for quite some time is what is and i

2072
01:11:03,110 --> 01:11:01,040
don't like to say this i

2073
01:11:04,630 --> 01:11:03,120
talked about this at the i was speaking

2074
01:11:07,430 --> 01:11:04,640
to previously

2075
01:11:09,110 --> 01:11:07,440
what is science 2.0 in essence theories

2076
01:11:12,630 --> 01:11:09,120
of everything is

2077
01:11:15,110 --> 01:11:12,640
the project is it's teetering on the

2078
01:11:18,790 --> 01:11:15,120
edge of that question

2079
01:11:20,390 --> 01:11:18,800
think about the science 400 years ago

2080
01:11:22,550 --> 01:11:20,400
it's not the same science now it wasn't

2081
01:11:24,390 --> 01:11:22,560
even called science and then so science

2082
01:11:26,310 --> 01:11:24,400
developed so then you can wonder well

2083
01:11:27,510 --> 01:11:26,320
where is it headed and then by what

2084
01:11:29,189 --> 01:11:27,520
criteria does what

2085
01:11:31,110 --> 01:11:29,199
does one include this into science

2086
01:11:33,270 --> 01:11:31,120
versus not science i call it

2087
01:11:35,189 --> 01:11:33,280
abhijnasis which is a mouthful but it's

2088
01:11:38,470 --> 01:11:35,199
a merging of gnosis which is

2089
01:11:40,709 --> 01:11:38,480
knowledge in the western sense and then

2090
01:11:42,070 --> 01:11:40,719
which is knowledge in the eastern sense

2091
01:11:43,110 --> 01:11:42,080
i'm not even sure if that's correct

2092
01:11:46,550 --> 01:11:43,120
maybe there's a

2093
01:11:48,790 --> 01:11:46,560
trichotomy rather than a duality

2094
01:11:50,790 --> 01:11:48,800
but either way this whole investigation

2095
01:11:52,070 --> 01:11:50,800
is to what is the next science and you

2096
01:11:53,110 --> 01:11:52,080
just mentioned well science is so-and-so

2097
01:11:55,110 --> 01:11:53,120
but i also think

2098
01:11:56,950 --> 01:11:55,120
is an investigation not of reality but

2099
01:11:58,229 --> 01:11:56,960
of objective reality as it's currently

2100
01:11:59,270 --> 01:11:58,239
defined because you require

2101
01:12:01,430 --> 01:11:59,280
inter-subjective

2102
01:12:02,550 --> 01:12:01,440
agreement so agreement between plenty of

2103
01:12:05,430 --> 01:12:02,560
people and right now

2104
01:12:06,229 --> 01:12:05,440
you've had experiences that i have i can

2105
01:12:08,390 --> 01:12:06,239
only

2106
01:12:09,350 --> 01:12:08,400
glimpse at a at a scintilla of

2107
01:12:11,270 --> 01:12:09,360
understanding

2108
01:12:12,470 --> 01:12:11,280
so we don't have intercept subjective

2109
01:12:14,310 --> 01:12:12,480
agreement with this

2110
01:12:15,750 --> 01:12:14,320
but it is still part of reality your

2111
01:12:17,430 --> 01:12:15,760
experience is part of reality

2112
01:12:19,350 --> 01:12:17,440
that's not captured in science so that's

2113
01:12:21,030 --> 01:12:19,360
why i was saying

2114
01:12:23,110 --> 01:12:21,040
it depends on what you call science with

2115
01:12:24,070 --> 01:12:23,120
your cup if you if whether or not you

2116
01:12:25,910 --> 01:12:24,080
want to follow it

2117
01:12:28,070 --> 01:12:25,920
additionally you mentioned as a

2118
01:12:30,550 --> 01:12:28,080
physician and i think

2119
01:12:32,709 --> 01:12:30,560
i think any science outside of the hard

2120
01:12:34,709 --> 01:12:32,719
sciences like math and physics

2121
01:12:36,229 --> 01:12:34,719
are in the realm of ethics because you

2122
01:12:36,950 --> 01:12:36,239
obvi you have to apply it in the world

2123
01:12:38,790 --> 01:12:36,960
of action

2124
01:12:40,950 --> 01:12:38,800
so you have to say is this intervention

2125
01:12:41,990 --> 01:12:40,960
worth it and over there you have a value

2126
01:12:43,430 --> 01:12:42,000
judgment

2127
01:12:45,110 --> 01:12:43,440
science would just say if then statement

2128
01:12:47,510 --> 01:12:45,120
so if you give this person this will

2129
01:12:49,189 --> 01:12:47,520
happen if this if this if this if this

2130
01:12:50,709 --> 01:12:49,199
you then have to select between them

2131
01:12:53,590 --> 01:12:50,719
which is a

2132
01:12:55,189 --> 01:12:53,600
it's a moral hierarchy it's an ethic and

2133
01:12:56,310 --> 01:12:55,199
i don't see that as incorporated into

2134
01:12:58,310 --> 01:12:56,320
science per se

2135
01:12:59,430 --> 01:12:58,320
so please let me hear your thoughts on

2136
01:13:02,390 --> 01:12:59,440
that

2137
01:13:03,270 --> 01:13:02,400
man i love this is the kind of [\h__\h] like

2138
01:13:07,270 --> 01:13:03,280
i just love

2139
01:13:09,750 --> 01:13:07,280
just because it's it's what i call

2140
01:13:10,390 --> 01:13:09,760
you call it science 2.0 right i call it

2141
01:13:12,149 --> 01:13:10,400
i hate it

2142
01:13:14,790 --> 01:13:12,159
i hate i mean i say i hate calling i

2143
01:13:15,590 --> 01:13:14,800
call it gnosis which is like that's

2144
01:13:17,430 --> 01:13:15,600
better

2145
01:13:19,510 --> 01:13:17,440
that's kind of that's thank thank you

2146
01:13:22,149 --> 01:13:19,520
it's worth it i i i

2147
01:13:23,030 --> 01:13:22,159
geek out and call it like health 3.0

2148
01:13:26,790 --> 01:13:23,040
which is

2149
01:13:27,189 --> 01:13:26,800
this idea that it's it's the science is

2150
01:13:29,669 --> 01:13:27,199
there

2151
01:13:31,750 --> 01:13:29,679
we're evidence empowered but then you

2152
01:13:34,070 --> 01:13:31,760
have this relationship with a patient

2153
01:13:35,590 --> 01:13:34,080
that has these currently intangible

2154
01:13:37,990 --> 01:13:35,600
because we don't have

2155
01:13:39,189 --> 01:13:38,000
inner subjective ways to measure these

2156
01:13:41,910 --> 01:13:39,199
things easily

2157
01:13:43,430 --> 01:13:41,920
give that relationship and that hope

2158
01:13:45,030 --> 01:13:43,440
streams and fears of the patient that if

2159
01:13:46,790 --> 01:13:45,040
you know it and you form a therapeutic

2160
01:13:48,070 --> 01:13:46,800
alliance which emerges some state that

2161
01:13:49,830 --> 01:13:48,080
we don't understand

2162
01:13:51,189 --> 01:13:49,840
that we call the mind-body connection

2163
01:13:53,270 --> 01:13:51,199
because we we're we're

2164
01:13:54,630 --> 01:13:53,280
you know basically monkeys flapping our

2165
01:13:55,830 --> 01:13:54,640
meat holes what do you mean when you say

2166
01:13:57,910 --> 01:13:55,840
therapeutic alliance

2167
01:13:59,430 --> 01:13:57,920
what do you mean explain that please so

2168
01:14:01,110 --> 01:13:59,440
a therapeutic alliance

2169
01:14:03,030 --> 01:14:01,120
everybody a lot of people have had this

2170
01:14:04,070 --> 01:14:03,040
experience where look i'm having this

2171
01:14:06,310 --> 01:14:04,080
suffering i'm having this

2172
01:14:07,830 --> 01:14:06,320
issue i'm having this mental thing i'm

2173
01:14:08,950 --> 01:14:07,840
having a physical thing whatever it is

2174
01:14:11,910 --> 01:14:08,960
i think they're all the same thing

2175
01:14:15,110 --> 01:14:11,920
honestly when i find someone

2176
01:14:17,270 --> 01:14:15,120
a healthcare professional who

2177
01:14:18,630 --> 01:14:17,280
sits with me feels connected to my

2178
01:14:20,229 --> 01:14:18,640
suffering

2179
01:14:21,990 --> 01:14:20,239
understands what i'm trying to say

2180
01:14:23,510 --> 01:14:22,000
witnesses my suffering

2181
01:14:26,709 --> 01:14:23,520
it almost doesn't matter what else they

2182
01:14:27,750 --> 01:14:26,719
do that alliance that we formed this

2183
01:14:30,470 --> 01:14:27,760
inner subjective we

2184
01:14:32,229 --> 01:14:30,480
space emerges a kind of healing for lack

2185
01:14:35,030 --> 01:14:32,239
of a you know it's a very woo-woo

2186
01:14:35,590 --> 01:14:35,040
to talk about and anyone who's practiced

2187
01:14:37,189 --> 01:14:35,600
medicine

2188
01:14:38,709 --> 01:14:37,199
knows this to be true anyone who's been

2189
01:14:40,229 --> 01:14:38,719
a patient and has experienced it

2190
01:14:42,229 --> 01:14:40,239
they may not know it because they may

2191
01:14:43,990 --> 01:14:42,239
still have this expectation well but he

2192
01:14:45,510 --> 01:14:44,000
also gave me an aspirin or gave me an

2193
01:14:47,110 --> 01:14:45,520
antibiotic and i got better or maybe

2194
01:14:49,590 --> 01:14:47,120
they gave me an antidepressant

2195
01:14:51,830 --> 01:14:49,600
what what what they will not and this is

2196
01:14:53,350 --> 01:14:51,840
why if you read reviews of docs online

2197
01:14:55,030 --> 01:14:53,360
what they do doesn't matter it's how

2198
01:14:57,030 --> 01:14:55,040
they did it

2199
01:14:58,870 --> 01:14:57,040
that's fascinating it has to do with

2200
01:15:01,990 --> 01:14:58,880
also complaints doctors who

2201
01:15:02,870 --> 01:15:02,000
people dislike get complained against at

2202
01:15:04,870 --> 01:15:02,880
a far

2203
01:15:06,470 --> 01:15:04,880
disproportionate rate than doctors that

2204
01:15:09,590 --> 01:15:06,480
they do like that gave them

2205
01:15:09,990 --> 01:15:09,600
mistreatments absolutely and you this is

2206
01:15:12,149 --> 01:15:10,000
interesting

2207
01:15:13,189 --> 01:15:12,159
because doctors who get those complaints

2208
01:15:14,390 --> 01:15:13,199
and again i'm

2209
01:15:15,430 --> 01:15:14,400
deeply connected in the healthcare

2210
01:15:16,550 --> 01:15:15,440
community right there's like three

2211
01:15:18,149 --> 01:15:16,560
million people who

2212
01:15:19,430 --> 01:15:18,159
who follow across platforms and most of

2213
01:15:20,709 --> 01:15:19,440
them are healthcare professionals and i

2214
01:15:24,709 --> 01:15:20,719
get messages

2215
01:15:27,110 --> 01:15:24,719
they are wounded deeply

2216
01:15:28,390 --> 01:15:27,120
when they get a complaint that says hey

2217
01:15:29,750 --> 01:15:28,400
i don't like the way this guy treated me

2218
01:15:30,790 --> 01:15:29,760
or the way that they behaved or the way

2219
01:15:32,470 --> 01:15:30,800
their staff was

2220
01:15:34,229 --> 01:15:32,480
because they'll say i did all the

2221
01:15:35,590 --> 01:15:34,239
scientific stuff i'm more evidence-based

2222
01:15:36,310 --> 01:15:35,600
than the doctor that they wrote a good

2223
01:15:38,310 --> 01:15:36,320
review for

2224
01:15:39,590 --> 01:15:38,320
i'm doing things i'm trying not to harm

2225
01:15:41,430 --> 01:15:39,600
the patient so on they have these

2226
01:15:41,910 --> 01:15:41,440
expectations they want antibiotics for a

2227
01:15:43,430 --> 01:15:41,920
cold

2228
01:15:44,950 --> 01:15:43,440
they want narcotics for pain i know

2229
01:15:45,590 --> 01:15:44,960
that's harmful and so they were mad at

2230
01:15:47,990 --> 01:15:45,600
me

2231
01:15:49,430 --> 01:15:48,000
but what's missed there and that's

2232
01:15:51,590 --> 01:15:49,440
normal that's defensive

2233
01:15:52,630 --> 01:15:51,600
sort of posturing what's missed there is

2234
01:15:55,830 --> 01:15:52,640
that well so what

2235
01:15:57,030 --> 01:15:55,840
failed in the therapeutic alliance that

2236
01:15:58,709 --> 01:15:57,040
we're not

2237
01:16:00,470 --> 01:15:58,719
able to let ourselves see because it's

2238
01:16:02,229 --> 01:16:00,480
hurtful to us because we realize

2239
01:16:03,669 --> 01:16:02,239
oh there's something about me here that

2240
01:16:04,709 --> 01:16:03,679
is actually and

2241
01:16:06,790 --> 01:16:04,719
why are they defensive in the first

2242
01:16:08,550 --> 01:16:06,800
place because they know underlying it is

2243
01:16:10,470 --> 01:16:08,560
this the kind of unworthiness that many

2244
01:16:13,750 --> 01:16:10,480
of us have you know as type a's

2245
01:16:16,390 --> 01:16:13,760
so it is a dynamic and um

2246
01:16:17,990 --> 01:16:16,400
is that something taught what i mean by

2247
01:16:19,189 --> 01:16:18,000
no what i mean is in school do they

2248
01:16:22,229 --> 01:16:19,199
teach you how to be

2249
01:16:24,229 --> 01:16:22,239
personable or amiable they they

2250
01:16:26,229 --> 01:16:24,239
they give you lip service to the bedside

2251
01:16:27,590 --> 01:16:26,239
manner and the patient relationship

2252
01:16:29,189 --> 01:16:27,600
and they you know they do this kind of

2253
01:16:30,070 --> 01:16:29,199
thing but they've not figured out how to

2254
01:16:33,189 --> 01:16:30,080
teach it

2255
01:16:35,189 --> 01:16:33,199
the way that we learn it is by example

2256
01:16:35,669 --> 01:16:35,199
from whoever our attending physicians

2257
01:16:37,750 --> 01:16:35,679
are

2258
01:16:39,750 --> 01:16:37,760
so what i would try to do is try to

2259
01:16:43,030 --> 01:16:39,760
emulate doctors that i knew

2260
01:16:45,910 --> 01:16:43,040
were really good at that and so here's a

2261
01:16:47,590 --> 01:16:45,920
but but if you have bad mentors or bad

2262
01:16:50,470 --> 01:16:47,600
examples which is rampant

2263
01:16:51,270 --> 01:16:50,480
because we just recapitulate our own

2264
01:16:53,510 --> 01:16:51,280
training

2265
01:16:54,709 --> 01:16:53,520
um and a lot of the older doctors are

2266
01:16:56,149 --> 01:16:54,719
injured by their training like the

2267
01:16:57,830 --> 01:16:56,159
training used to be just absolutely even

2268
01:17:00,229 --> 01:16:57,840
more brutal than it is now but

2269
01:17:01,510 --> 01:17:00,239
they're injured by it injured meaning

2270
01:17:03,750 --> 01:17:01,520
psychically injured by it

2271
01:17:05,510 --> 01:17:03,760
so you know it used to be very common

2272
01:17:06,709 --> 01:17:05,520
you would just be in the hospital for 36

2273
01:17:08,550 --> 01:17:06,719
hours or longer

2274
01:17:09,830 --> 01:17:08,560
working the whole time constantly shamed

2275
01:17:12,870 --> 01:17:09,840
by yourself

2276
01:17:13,590 --> 01:17:12,880
yeah so they then recapitulate this

2277
01:17:15,669 --> 01:17:13,600
cycle

2278
01:17:17,510 --> 01:17:15,679
uh and and so you watch it and and then

2279
01:17:19,110 --> 01:17:17,520
of course it bleeds into patient care

2280
01:17:21,189 --> 01:17:19,120
because you've been trained to be a

2281
01:17:22,870 --> 01:17:21,199
psychopath and

2282
01:17:24,870 --> 01:17:22,880
now you're asked to be compassionate or

2283
01:17:26,149 --> 01:17:24,880
empathetic right which i don't conflate

2284
01:17:26,950 --> 01:17:26,159
by the way compassion and empathy which

2285
01:17:28,470 --> 01:17:26,960
we can talk about

2286
01:17:30,790 --> 01:17:28,480
they're quite different and actually one

2287
01:17:33,110 --> 01:17:30,800
is harmful one is actually beneficial

2288
01:17:34,070 --> 01:17:33,120
but um so we're not really trained that

2289
01:17:35,750 --> 01:17:34,080
we watch

2290
01:17:37,510 --> 01:17:35,760
doctors doing it now one one thing i

2291
01:17:39,110 --> 01:17:37,520
remember seeing for example is is

2292
01:17:40,550 --> 01:17:39,120
you know dr norm risk who was the head

2293
01:17:42,470 --> 01:17:40,560
of icu when i was there training at

2294
01:17:45,030 --> 01:17:42,480
stanford as a resident

2295
01:17:46,229 --> 01:17:45,040
he would tell patients at the in the icu

2296
01:17:47,830 --> 01:17:46,239
sickest of the sick

2297
01:17:50,310 --> 01:17:47,840
patients that we all knew like us

2298
01:17:52,790 --> 01:17:50,320
residents were like why are we still

2299
01:17:54,229 --> 01:17:52,800
in ventilating this patient on tons of

2300
01:17:55,510 --> 01:17:54,239
agents to keep their blood pressure up

2301
01:17:56,790 --> 01:17:55,520
giving them all these antibiotics

2302
01:17:58,470 --> 01:17:56,800
millions of dollars of care

2303
01:18:00,149 --> 01:17:58,480
patients unconscious never going to make

2304
01:18:02,390 --> 01:18:00,159
it family is not

2305
01:18:03,990 --> 01:18:02,400
clear that this is the end and why are

2306
01:18:05,510 --> 01:18:04,000
we doing this this is a kind of injury

2307
01:18:07,350 --> 01:18:05,520
to us because we're forced to be

2308
01:18:10,070 --> 01:18:07,360
complicit in a torture

2309
01:18:12,390 --> 01:18:10,080
because nobody is going to openly say

2310
01:18:14,630 --> 01:18:12,400
what's absolutely true which is we're

2311
01:18:16,630 --> 01:18:14,640
not helping this patient so what norm

2312
01:18:18,149 --> 01:18:16,640
risk would do is he would call a family

2313
01:18:19,189 --> 01:18:18,159
meeting with all of us we'd sit there

2314
01:18:20,709 --> 01:18:19,199
with the family

2315
01:18:22,550 --> 01:18:20,719
he would hold the hand of the person he

2316
01:18:23,510 --> 01:18:22,560
was talking to as the authority figure

2317
01:18:25,990 --> 01:18:23,520
with the gray hair

2318
01:18:26,950 --> 01:18:26,000
and he would say you know there comes a

2319
01:18:30,709 --> 01:18:26,960
point where

2320
01:18:33,830 --> 01:18:30,719
we are doing things to your husband

2321
01:18:34,790 --> 01:18:33,840
instead of for your husband and i think

2322
01:18:36,630 --> 01:18:34,800
we

2323
01:18:38,470 --> 01:18:36,640
are past that point now and he would

2324
01:18:41,030 --> 01:18:38,480
then engage in

2325
01:18:42,630 --> 01:18:41,040
you know whatever anger or denial or

2326
01:18:45,350 --> 01:18:42,640
bargaining or anything that came out

2327
01:18:46,229 --> 01:18:45,360
and by watching that by absorbing that

2328
01:18:53,830 --> 01:18:46,239
you

2329
01:18:55,270 --> 01:18:53,840
that same sort of language emerges so

2330
01:18:56,870 --> 01:18:55,280
that's that's a lot of how the

2331
01:18:58,950 --> 01:18:56,880
apprenticeship of medicine

2332
01:19:01,110 --> 01:18:58,960
training works now you can imagine

2333
01:19:03,590 --> 01:19:01,120
though if you don't have a norm risk

2334
01:19:05,110 --> 01:19:03,600
and you have you know bobby mcbobby from

2335
01:19:06,550 --> 01:19:05,120
the community who's been

2336
01:19:08,550 --> 01:19:06,560
injured by their own training and

2337
01:19:10,870 --> 01:19:08,560
doesn't is burned out and

2338
01:19:13,030 --> 01:19:10,880
you they're going to model that to you

2339
01:19:15,110 --> 01:19:13,040
and and honestly by the end of my full

2340
01:19:17,510 --> 01:19:15,120
academic career

2341
01:19:19,430 --> 01:19:17,520
as a hospital doc i was modeling bad

2342
01:19:22,149 --> 01:19:19,440
behavior to residents because i was

2343
01:19:23,990 --> 01:19:22,159
pretty burned out so you know it took

2344
01:19:26,709 --> 01:19:24,000
stepping away to regain

2345
01:19:27,990 --> 01:19:26,719
the connection to actual compassion

2346
01:19:30,709 --> 01:19:28,000
because empathy wasn't working his

2347
01:19:33,510 --> 01:19:30,719
empathy will will kind of burn you out

2348
01:19:34,550 --> 01:19:33,520
because empathy is feeling someone else

2349
01:19:37,669 --> 01:19:34,560
yeah so and

2350
01:19:40,950 --> 01:19:37,679
let's be very precise so affective

2351
01:19:41,830 --> 01:19:40,960
empathy is feeling someone else's

2352
01:19:45,669 --> 01:19:41,840
suffering

2353
01:19:47,910 --> 01:19:45,679
really inhabiting it

2354
01:19:50,390 --> 01:19:47,920
and then acting from the feeling of

2355
01:19:51,189 --> 01:19:50,400
suffering not so much for love of the

2356
01:19:53,110 --> 01:19:51,199
patient

2357
01:19:55,270 --> 01:19:53,120
but acting for relief of that suffering

2358
01:19:58,470 --> 01:19:55,280
oh i know what it's like to

2359
01:19:59,750 --> 01:19:58,480
you know withdraw from narcotics maybe

2360
01:20:01,350 --> 01:19:59,760
the best thing to do is just

2361
01:20:03,030 --> 01:20:01,360
give them a little bit of morphine to

2362
01:20:04,550 --> 01:20:03,040
calm them down because man i've been

2363
01:20:05,669 --> 01:20:04,560
through that myself you're watching this

2364
01:20:07,030 --> 01:20:05,679
channel because you're interested in

2365
01:20:08,709 --> 01:20:07,040
theoretical physics

2366
01:20:10,229 --> 01:20:08,719
consciousness and the ostensible

2367
01:20:11,590 --> 01:20:10,239
connection between the two what's

2368
01:20:12,390 --> 01:20:11,600
required to follow some of these

2369
01:20:14,149 --> 01:20:12,400
arguments is

2370
01:20:16,390 --> 01:20:14,159
facility with mathematics as well as

2371
01:20:17,030 --> 01:20:16,400
discernment of the underlying physical

2372
01:20:18,470 --> 01:20:17,040
laws and

2373
01:20:20,390 --> 01:20:18,480
you may think that this is beyond you

2374
01:20:22,550 --> 01:20:20,400
but that's false brilliance provides

2375
01:20:23,830 --> 01:20:22,560
pelucid explanations of abstruse

2376
01:20:26,229 --> 01:20:23,840
phenomenon such as

2377
01:20:27,910 --> 01:20:26,239
quantum computing general relativity and

2378
01:20:30,390 --> 01:20:27,920
even group theory when you hear that the

2379
01:20:31,350 --> 01:20:30,400
standard model is based on u1 cross su 2

2380
01:20:33,350 --> 01:20:31,360
cross su 3

2381
01:20:35,189 --> 01:20:33,360
that's group theory for example now this

2382
01:20:37,350 --> 01:20:35,199
isn't just for neophytes either

2383
01:20:38,709 --> 01:20:37,360
for example i have a degree in math and

2384
01:20:40,470 --> 01:20:38,719
physics and i still found

2385
01:20:43,110 --> 01:20:40,480
some of the intuitions given in these

2386
01:20:44,629 --> 01:20:43,120
lessons to vastly aid my penetration

2387
01:20:46,629 --> 01:20:44,639
into these subjects for example

2388
01:20:48,310 --> 01:20:46,639
electricity and magnetism sign up today

2389
01:20:51,430 --> 01:20:48,320
at brilliant.org

2390
01:20:52,149 --> 01:20:51,440
tow that is t-o-e for free you'll also

2391
01:20:54,310 --> 01:20:52,159
get 20

2392
01:20:56,149 --> 01:20:54,320
off the annual premium subscription try

2393
01:20:58,629 --> 01:20:56,159
four of the lessons at least don't

2394
01:20:59,990 --> 01:20:58,639
stop before four and i think you'll be

2395
01:21:01,590 --> 01:21:00,000
greatly surprised at the

2396
01:21:03,830 --> 01:21:01,600
ease at which you comprehend subjects

2397
01:21:05,669 --> 01:21:03,840
you previously had trouble grocking

2398
01:21:06,870 --> 01:21:05,679
links are in the description i have a

2399
01:21:07,510 --> 01:21:06,880
quick question about morphine while

2400
01:21:10,310 --> 01:21:07,520
we're on this

2401
01:21:11,750 --> 01:21:10,320
i know we're on a great thread morphine

2402
01:21:12,310 --> 01:21:11,760
apparently doesn't cross the blood-brain

2403
01:21:14,709 --> 01:21:12,320
barrier

2404
01:21:16,310 --> 01:21:14,719
is that correct you actually don't know

2405
01:21:17,669 --> 01:21:16,320
the answer to that

2406
01:21:19,910 --> 01:21:17,679
okay don't know the answer that yeah

2407
01:21:21,350 --> 01:21:19,920
okay well as far as i know heroin does

2408
01:21:22,470 --> 01:21:21,360
and the heroin becomes morphine in the

2409
01:21:24,310 --> 01:21:22,480
brain and that's one of the reasons

2410
01:21:26,550 --> 01:21:24,320
heroin is more potent than morphine

2411
01:21:28,149 --> 01:21:26,560
i don't know if this is true so most of

2412
01:21:30,470 --> 01:21:28,159
them are processed in the liver

2413
01:21:31,990 --> 01:21:30,480
to turn into morphine compounds that are

2414
01:21:34,229 --> 01:21:32,000
then active

2415
01:21:36,390 --> 01:21:34,239
okay well something i was wondering is

2416
01:21:39,189 --> 01:21:36,400
why is it that morphine feels good

2417
01:21:40,470 --> 01:21:39,199
when it seems to give you a slight high

2418
01:21:41,990 --> 01:21:40,480
if it doesn't cross the blood-brain

2419
01:21:42,950 --> 01:21:42,000
barriers that simply because of the

2420
01:21:45,750 --> 01:21:42,960
connection between

2421
01:21:47,110 --> 01:21:45,760
mind and body well okay so first i'd

2422
01:21:48,470 --> 01:21:47,120
have to confirm that that's

2423
01:21:50,149 --> 01:21:48,480
true that it doesn't have a central

2424
01:21:52,310 --> 01:21:50,159
effect because i think it does

2425
01:21:53,510 --> 01:21:52,320
i know it has you know direct central

2426
01:21:55,990 --> 01:21:53,520
spinal effect

2427
01:21:57,510 --> 01:21:56,000
there are opioid mu receptors throughout

2428
01:21:58,950 --> 01:21:57,520
the nervous system i don't

2429
01:22:00,790 --> 01:21:58,960
know it could be just because i haven't

2430
01:22:02,070 --> 01:22:00,800
looked at this in a long time but the

2431
01:22:03,990 --> 01:22:02,080
euphoric

2432
01:22:05,669 --> 01:22:04,000
sense which isn't it's actually

2433
01:22:06,709 --> 01:22:05,679
different for different types of opioids

2434
01:22:07,910 --> 01:22:06,719
and partially it's how they're

2435
01:22:09,110 --> 01:22:07,920
metabolized

2436
01:22:10,950 --> 01:22:09,120
and a pain special should be able to

2437
01:22:12,950 --> 01:22:10,960
speak to this more cogently

2438
01:22:15,590 --> 01:22:12,960
but but we found patients would request

2439
01:22:18,950 --> 01:22:15,600
specific narcotics because they provided

2440
01:22:21,189 --> 01:22:18,960
a a euphoria like say demerol

2441
01:22:22,070 --> 01:22:21,199
dilaudid had much more euphoria than

2442
01:22:25,510 --> 01:22:22,080
just iv

2443
01:22:28,790 --> 01:22:25,520
morphine or heaven forbid uh you know

2444
01:22:30,310 --> 01:22:28,800
coding which you know i think 10 or 20

2445
01:22:32,390 --> 01:22:30,320
of caucasians don't even process

2446
01:22:35,510 --> 01:22:32,400
correctly so they don't get any

2447
01:22:36,629 --> 01:22:35,520
experience from it um sorry you're

2448
01:22:37,590 --> 01:22:36,639
saying you don't want to give people

2449
01:22:39,750 --> 01:22:37,600
coding

2450
01:22:41,510 --> 01:22:39,760
no no people don't want it because it

2451
01:22:44,870 --> 01:22:41,520
doesn't give you that

2452
01:22:46,390 --> 01:22:44,880
that euphoria um and so so we always

2453
01:22:48,470 --> 01:22:46,400
knew like patients will request a

2454
01:22:50,629 --> 01:22:48,480
certain hierarchy of narcotics in fact

2455
01:22:52,390 --> 01:22:50,639
they will even tell you i'm someone

2456
01:22:53,750 --> 01:22:52,400
who's dependent on narcotics

2457
01:22:55,510 --> 01:22:53,760
and we you know we can use this term

2458
01:22:57,189 --> 01:22:55,520
addiction they may come to the emergency

2459
01:22:58,870 --> 01:22:57,199
department with a complaint and say okay

2460
01:23:01,030 --> 01:22:58,880
i'm allergic to morphine

2461
01:23:02,229 --> 01:23:01,040
i'm allergic to codeine i'm allergic to

2462
01:23:04,790 --> 01:23:02,239
all these aspirin and

2463
01:23:05,990 --> 01:23:04,800
tylenol derivatives the only thing that

2464
01:23:07,830 --> 01:23:06,000
helps me starts with a d

2465
01:23:09,110 --> 01:23:07,840
i don't remember the name d d d and

2466
01:23:12,229 --> 01:23:09,120
you're like demeral

2467
01:23:14,229 --> 01:23:12,239
yeah that's it or dilaudid oh yeah

2468
01:23:16,070 --> 01:23:14,239
so there's definitely a hierarchy of

2469
01:23:16,870 --> 01:23:16,080
narcotics so they all have slightly

2470
01:23:17,990 --> 01:23:16,880
different

2471
01:23:20,310 --> 01:23:18,000
experiences now some of that is

2472
01:23:21,830 --> 01:23:20,320
expectation so we talked about mind body

2473
01:23:23,830 --> 01:23:21,840
some of that is expectation

2474
01:23:25,110 --> 01:23:23,840
one interesting thing is the placebo

2475
01:23:26,470 --> 01:23:25,120
effect which

2476
01:23:28,229 --> 01:23:26,480
nobody really understands there's a guy

2477
01:23:29,669 --> 01:23:28,239
at harvard who studies it and some

2478
01:23:32,629 --> 01:23:29,679
others that study it but

2479
01:23:34,310 --> 01:23:32,639
it's been getting stronger over time

2480
01:23:36,550 --> 01:23:34,320
over the decades now why is that

2481
01:23:39,110 --> 01:23:36,560
is it because people especially

2482
01:23:41,189 --> 01:23:39,120
americans expect our medicines to work

2483
01:23:42,310 --> 01:23:41,199
more than they did in the old days and

2484
01:23:44,629 --> 01:23:42,320
it's gotten so bad

2485
01:23:46,229 --> 01:23:44,639
kurt that now apparently if you redid

2486
01:23:48,790 --> 01:23:46,239
the same studies that showed that

2487
01:23:51,189 --> 01:23:48,800
certain antidepressants ssris

2488
01:23:52,229 --> 01:23:51,199
actually work they would no longer work

2489
01:23:53,590 --> 01:23:52,239
against placebo

2490
01:23:55,590 --> 01:23:53,600
because the placebo has gotten so

2491
01:23:57,110 --> 01:23:55,600
powerful so it tells you again like how

2492
01:24:00,070 --> 01:23:57,120
much of this is mined

2493
01:24:02,790 --> 01:24:00,080
the we space the therapeutic alliance

2494
01:24:04,550 --> 01:24:02,800
all of that that emerges health 3.0

2495
01:24:06,550 --> 01:24:04,560
where you have the science component of

2496
01:24:08,390 --> 01:24:06,560
the stuff that you can reduce

2497
01:24:10,790 --> 01:24:08,400
to the objective and then there's the

2498
01:24:13,030 --> 01:24:10,800
internal experience not just of i

2499
01:24:14,390 --> 01:24:13,040
internal but of we the inner subjective

2500
01:24:15,910 --> 01:24:14,400
experience which is

2501
01:24:17,590 --> 01:24:15,920
again it's an internal state

2502
01:24:17,910 --> 01:24:17,600
externalized between two people and we

2503
01:24:20,950 --> 01:24:17,920
use

2504
01:24:22,149 --> 01:24:20,960
there's no way to know your internal

2505
01:24:23,990 --> 01:24:22,159
state unless you tell me

2506
01:24:26,070 --> 01:24:24,000
which is why it's so uncomfortable to

2507
01:24:28,629 --> 01:24:26,080
describe a non-dual experience

2508
01:24:29,910 --> 01:24:28,639
because it's the words just fail and

2509
01:24:31,189 --> 01:24:29,920
then you're just like you think i'm

2510
01:24:32,950 --> 01:24:31,199
crazy

2511
01:24:34,470 --> 01:24:32,960
that's what it feels like sometimes

2512
01:24:36,550 --> 01:24:34,480
remember how i mentioned that

2513
01:24:37,990 --> 01:24:36,560
i think theories of everything free will

2514
01:24:38,390 --> 01:24:38,000
consciousness and god are intimately

2515
01:24:40,550 --> 01:24:38,400
tied

2516
01:24:41,510 --> 01:24:40,560
i also think that the placebo effect and

2517
01:24:44,709 --> 01:24:41,520
self-fulfilling

2518
01:24:48,229 --> 01:24:44,719
prophecies are in there somewhere

2519
01:24:51,430 --> 01:24:48,239
i'm i may be writing a a book on

2520
01:24:52,790 --> 01:24:51,440
the placebo effect because there's

2521
01:24:55,430 --> 01:24:52,800
well it's just the more you think about

2522
01:24:58,950 --> 01:24:55,440
it the more it boggles the mind

2523
01:24:59,590 --> 01:24:58,960
as for the antidepressant not performing

2524
01:25:00,709 --> 01:24:59,600
as well why

2525
01:25:02,070 --> 01:25:00,719
would that be the case unless an

2526
01:25:03,669 --> 01:25:02,080
antidepressant is harming you because

2527
01:25:05,270 --> 01:25:03,679
wouldn't the antidepressant be raised at

2528
01:25:06,950 --> 01:25:05,280
the same level as placebo

2529
01:25:08,629 --> 01:25:06,960
yeah yeah so sorry i should be very

2530
01:25:12,149 --> 01:25:08,639
specific if you did

2531
01:25:14,229 --> 01:25:12,159
that trial uh um

2532
01:25:15,350 --> 01:25:14,239
exactly back then using the level of

2533
01:25:17,350 --> 01:25:15,360
placebo that

2534
01:25:18,550 --> 01:25:17,360
is now you know the efficacy of placebo

2535
01:25:20,229 --> 01:25:18,560
now it would fail

2536
01:25:22,550 --> 01:25:20,239
but what would probably happen now is

2537
01:25:25,350 --> 01:25:22,560
both would rise and the question is

2538
01:25:26,070 --> 01:25:25,360
would the uh active ingredient rise more

2539
01:25:27,669 --> 01:25:26,080
than placebo

2540
01:25:28,629 --> 01:25:27,679
and still be statistically significant

2541
01:25:29,750 --> 01:25:28,639
we don't know because i don't think the

2542
01:25:31,430 --> 01:25:29,760
trial has been done

2543
01:25:32,950 --> 01:25:31,440
but it is quite interesting and you're

2544
01:25:34,950 --> 01:25:32,960
on to something with that and

2545
01:25:35,990 --> 01:25:34,960
and by the way tying that back into what

2546
01:25:39,510 --> 01:25:36,000
your whole

2547
01:25:39,990 --> 01:25:39,520
you know this you know gnosis that

2548
01:25:43,590 --> 01:25:40,000
you're talking

2549
01:25:45,669 --> 01:25:43,600
about yeah yeah yeah you know

2550
01:25:47,510 --> 01:25:45,679
uh daniel schmacktenberger who i think

2551
01:25:49,189 --> 01:25:47,520
you know um

2552
01:25:50,629 --> 01:25:49,199
and i were talking and he shared a piece

2553
01:25:53,030 --> 01:25:50,639
of writing that he wrote he

2554
01:25:53,990 --> 01:25:53,040
he looks at it this way he calls it the

2555
01:25:57,270 --> 01:25:54,000
dance of

2556
01:25:59,510 --> 01:25:57,280
the dao with the ten thousand things

2557
01:26:01,750 --> 01:25:59,520
and that's a very poetic way of saying

2558
01:26:03,510 --> 01:26:01,760
the absolute which was whatever is

2559
01:26:05,350 --> 01:26:03,520
fundamental reality whether it's

2560
01:26:06,629 --> 01:26:05,360
emptiness or awareness or whatever you

2561
01:26:09,110 --> 01:26:06,639
want to call it

2562
01:26:10,790 --> 01:26:09,120
dances with manifestation which is the

2563
01:26:12,629 --> 01:26:10,800
stuff we can measure and quantify and

2564
01:26:15,430 --> 01:26:12,639
use our typical science on

2565
01:26:15,990 --> 01:26:15,440
in an intimate and inseparable way

2566
01:26:18,149 --> 01:26:16,000
that's

2567
01:26:19,830 --> 01:26:18,159
beautiful and complex when i think of

2568
01:26:23,110 --> 01:26:19,840
human organisms

2569
01:26:24,550 --> 01:26:23,120
i think of what um what federico fajine

2570
01:26:26,790 --> 01:26:24,560
who i've had on my show

2571
01:26:28,070 --> 01:26:26,800
talks about he's he's he's a like

2572
01:26:29,110 --> 01:26:28,080
someone who's funded some of don

2573
01:26:31,750 --> 01:26:29,120
hoffman's work

2574
01:26:32,390 --> 01:26:31,760
he is a physicist italian guy who

2575
01:26:36,149 --> 01:26:32,400
invented the

2576
01:26:36,870 --> 01:26:36,159
first commercial microprocessor with

2577
01:26:38,950 --> 01:26:36,880
intel

2578
01:26:40,070 --> 01:26:38,960
in the 70s and since has worked on ai

2579
01:26:43,430 --> 01:26:40,080
and stuff and

2580
01:26:45,990 --> 01:26:43,440
he wrote a book about this he feels that

2581
01:26:47,750 --> 01:26:46,000
you know humans are these quantum

2582
01:26:49,990 --> 01:26:47,760
classical hybrid systems

2583
01:26:51,590 --> 01:26:50,000
where you you know when he uses quantum

2584
01:26:53,590 --> 01:26:51,600
he's talking about this indeterminate

2585
01:26:56,709 --> 01:26:53,600
space where free will may emerge from

2586
01:26:58,950 --> 01:26:56,719
nothing and and that may be

2587
01:27:01,350 --> 01:26:58,960
another for this kind of substance of

2588
01:27:04,950 --> 01:27:01,360
reality and then it manifests

2589
01:27:06,470 --> 01:27:04,960
in this very classical deterministic way

2590
01:27:08,870 --> 01:27:06,480
in the form of the body in the body like

2591
01:27:09,590 --> 01:27:08,880
a human cell is a quantum classical

2592
01:27:12,550 --> 01:27:09,600
hybrid

2593
01:27:14,070 --> 01:27:12,560
so you have this really kind of

2594
01:27:17,270 --> 01:27:14,080
indeterminate free will

2595
01:27:17,990 --> 01:27:17,280
generating complexity of of is-ness and

2596
01:27:20,790 --> 01:27:18,000
then you have

2597
01:27:22,790 --> 01:27:20,800
the mechanistic stuff we can measure and

2598
01:27:25,110 --> 01:27:22,800
quantify and they're not two

2599
01:27:26,470 --> 01:27:25,120
so i think that's an interesting way to

2600
01:27:27,510 --> 01:27:26,480
look at that wait we said they're not

2601
01:27:31,030 --> 01:27:27,520
two

2602
01:27:34,070 --> 01:27:31,040
they're

2603
01:27:35,189 --> 01:27:34,080
intertwined at the human level or in

2604
01:27:37,510 --> 01:27:35,199
reality

2605
01:27:39,350 --> 01:27:37,520
in in so in other words the way he

2606
01:27:42,229 --> 01:27:39,360
describes it as a metaphor is

2607
01:27:43,669 --> 01:27:42,239
the human body is like the interface in

2608
01:27:46,310 --> 01:27:43,679
a virtual reality

2609
01:27:48,709 --> 01:27:46,320
the user of the virtual reality is in

2610
01:27:51,669 --> 01:27:48,719
the quantum realm and is pure

2611
01:27:52,709 --> 01:27:51,679
free will decision making and then it

2612
01:27:56,070 --> 01:27:52,719
interfaces with

2613
01:27:59,270 --> 01:27:56,080
this realm in an absolutely

2614
01:28:02,390 --> 01:27:59,280
seamless way where you would never know

2615
01:28:03,030 --> 01:28:02,400
that this is an avatar but it and again

2616
01:28:04,709 --> 01:28:03,040
but again

2617
01:28:06,149 --> 01:28:04,719
it's all made out of awareness

2618
01:28:08,390 --> 01:28:06,159
ultimately is his

2619
01:28:09,990 --> 01:28:08,400
posit it's all still one substance but

2620
01:28:12,149 --> 01:28:10,000
it just appears in this way

2621
01:28:14,149 --> 01:28:12,159
and mechanistically it functions like

2622
01:28:17,189 --> 01:28:14,159
this where the avatar

2623
01:28:18,629 --> 01:28:17,199
and our decision making and

2624
01:28:20,229 --> 01:28:18,639
another way to think about this is when

2625
01:28:21,910 --> 01:28:20,239
you're in a flow state or you're in an

2626
01:28:23,350 --> 01:28:21,920
authentic conversation like we're having

2627
01:28:23,910 --> 01:28:23,360
a pretty authentic conversation right

2628
01:28:26,709 --> 01:28:23,920
now

2629
01:28:28,229 --> 01:28:26,719
where is any of this coming from the

2630
01:28:29,030 --> 01:28:28,239
discussion we're having the words that

2631
01:28:31,510 --> 01:28:29,040
we're speaking

2632
01:28:32,709 --> 01:28:31,520
it comes from emptiness it comes from

2633
01:28:35,350 --> 01:28:32,719
something that we can't

2634
01:28:36,709 --> 01:28:35,360
point back from darkness really and

2635
01:28:39,030 --> 01:28:36,719
federico's argument is that

2636
01:28:40,149 --> 01:28:39,040
it comes from the free will decisions

2637
01:28:42,550 --> 01:28:40,159
that are in that

2638
01:28:43,590 --> 01:28:42,560
realm rather than right or not who knows

2639
01:28:45,510 --> 01:28:43,600
right it's a typical

2640
01:28:47,590 --> 01:28:45,520
difficult thing to test this is why when

2641
01:28:49,189 --> 01:28:47,600
people say free will exist or free will

2642
01:28:49,910 --> 01:28:49,199
doesn't exist i'm always skeptical

2643
01:28:52,149 --> 01:28:49,920
because it's

2644
01:28:53,270 --> 01:28:52,159
it's absolutely not obvious there are

2645
01:28:55,669 --> 01:28:53,280
reasons to believe it

2646
01:28:57,110 --> 01:28:55,679
in both directions and then you

2647
01:28:59,270 --> 01:28:57,120
mentioned also sam harris is someone

2648
01:29:00,950 --> 01:28:59,280
that makes no ontological claims but he

2649
01:29:02,149 --> 01:29:00,960
also said that free will doesn't exist

2650
01:29:03,830 --> 01:29:02,159
that's an ontological claim

2651
01:29:05,350 --> 01:29:03,840
and he also said that god doesn't exist

2652
01:29:07,270 --> 01:29:05,360
which is an ontological claim of course

2653
01:29:09,350 --> 01:29:07,280
you have to define god

2654
01:29:10,550 --> 01:29:09,360
yeah i find um sam is an interesting

2655
01:29:13,189 --> 01:29:10,560
character so

2656
01:29:15,430 --> 01:29:13,199
he just as my own journey you know i was

2657
01:29:16,310 --> 01:29:15,440
a pretty hardcore science-based atheist

2658
01:29:17,669 --> 01:29:16,320
reductionist

2659
01:29:19,910 --> 01:29:17,679
anything i'm saying now i would have

2660
01:29:21,510 --> 01:29:19,920
struck myself as insane

2661
01:29:23,030 --> 01:29:21,520
and probably that i've been smoking

2662
01:29:25,270 --> 01:29:23,040
something and not a good idea

2663
01:29:27,110 --> 01:29:25,280
isn't that fascinating huh isn't it and

2664
01:29:28,070 --> 01:29:27,120
uh and that would have been

2665
01:29:30,229 --> 01:29:28,080
that would have been eight years ago

2666
01:29:31,830 --> 01:29:30,239
that i would told you that now

2667
01:29:34,550 --> 01:29:31,840
what's interesting about sam is he was

2668
01:29:37,030 --> 01:29:34,560
my gateway drug to spirituality

2669
01:29:38,790 --> 01:29:37,040
so i read his atheist works you know uh

2670
01:29:40,550 --> 01:29:38,800
letters to a christian nation

2671
01:29:41,830 --> 01:29:40,560
and you know i forget what the other one

2672
01:29:44,310 --> 01:29:41,840
was and

2673
01:29:45,510 --> 01:29:44,320
um was enamored with the new atheists

2674
01:29:46,870 --> 01:29:45,520
and these guys and i'm like these guys

2675
01:29:48,629 --> 01:29:46,880
are speaking truth man religion's

2676
01:29:50,629 --> 01:29:48,639
[\h__\h] and all that

2677
01:29:52,470 --> 01:29:50,639
then i read you know waking up a guide

2678
01:29:56,470 --> 01:29:52,480
to spirituality without religion

2679
01:30:01,110 --> 01:29:56,480
and i was like wait sam is yearning

2680
01:30:03,350 --> 01:30:01,120
deeply for the same mythos the same

2681
01:30:05,189 --> 01:30:03,360
fundamental sense of business meaning

2682
01:30:06,149 --> 01:30:05,199
purpose whatever it is that everyone is

2683
01:30:08,709 --> 01:30:06,159
religious is

2684
01:30:10,229 --> 01:30:08,719
he's just found a different angle on it

2685
01:30:11,510 --> 01:30:10,239
and that's when i started meditating and

2686
01:30:14,629 --> 01:30:11,520
exploring that path

2687
01:30:16,149 --> 01:30:14,639
but he he made it okay to do that now

2688
01:30:17,430 --> 01:30:16,159
now i listen to him and i'm like oh man

2689
01:30:18,149 --> 01:30:17,440
he's pretty stubborn about a lot of

2690
01:30:19,590 --> 01:30:18,159
stuff

2691
01:30:21,669 --> 01:30:19,600
like you're right he makes ontological

2692
01:30:22,070 --> 01:30:21,679
claims about free will and god and so on

2693
01:30:25,270 --> 01:30:22,080
and

2694
01:30:26,790 --> 01:30:25,280
with rupert spyro which was kind of

2695
01:30:27,990 --> 01:30:26,800
painful to listen to because they were

2696
01:30:29,590 --> 01:30:28,000
just going at it like

2697
01:30:31,030 --> 01:30:29,600
is materialism real or is it all

2698
01:30:32,070 --> 01:30:31,040
consciousness and how can you say that

2699
01:30:33,510 --> 01:30:32,080
and so on and i'm like

2700
01:30:35,510 --> 01:30:33,520
you know you've got rupert here probably

2701
01:30:38,550 --> 01:30:35,520
it's a good idea to talk about

2702
01:30:39,750 --> 01:30:38,560
you know non-dual experience but

2703
01:30:41,910 --> 01:30:39,760
but it was a good conversation because

2704
01:30:43,590 --> 01:30:41,920
you could really dig into it he asked

2705
01:30:45,590 --> 01:30:43,600
one sam asked one question of rupert

2706
01:30:50,390 --> 01:30:45,600
that i thought was fascinating

2707
01:30:52,470 --> 01:30:50,400
that was what happens under anesthesia

2708
01:30:54,070 --> 01:30:52,480
have you ever had general anesthesia and

2709
01:30:55,590 --> 01:30:54,080
i have and

2710
01:30:57,510 --> 01:30:55,600
my experience of general anesthesia was

2711
01:31:00,550 --> 01:30:57,520
this count down from 10

2712
01:31:03,750 --> 01:31:00,560
10 9 8

2713
01:31:05,910 --> 01:31:03,760
where am i i'm here awake

2714
01:31:07,990 --> 01:31:05,920
in post-op recovery there was an

2715
01:31:11,030 --> 01:31:08,000
absolute slice of reality

2716
01:31:12,390 --> 01:31:11,040
removed and it didn't have the sense of

2717
01:31:16,229 --> 01:31:12,400
continuity

2718
01:31:18,070 --> 01:31:16,239
that you have when you go to sleep

2719
01:31:19,669 --> 01:31:18,080
so when you sleep there's still a sense

2720
01:31:21,189 --> 01:31:19,679
that oh how'd you sleep pretty good

2721
01:31:23,830 --> 01:31:21,199
how'd you know that

2722
01:31:25,910 --> 01:31:23,840
because there's like a sense of being

2723
01:31:27,430 --> 01:31:25,920
that occurs when you're asleep

2724
01:31:29,030 --> 01:31:27,440
maybe it's not just dreaming i think

2725
01:31:30,870 --> 01:31:29,040
even in deep sleep

2726
01:31:32,790 --> 01:31:30,880
but this was different this was like

2727
01:31:35,510 --> 01:31:32,800
lights out lights on

2728
01:31:36,229 --> 01:31:35,520
and it made me question well maybe

2729
01:31:38,709 --> 01:31:36,239
consciousness

2730
01:31:40,709 --> 01:31:38,719
is purely a brain-based material thing

2731
01:31:43,750 --> 01:31:40,719
because if you give it certain chemicals

2732
01:31:45,669 --> 01:31:43,760
it's gone gone in a way that i felt like

2733
01:31:46,550 --> 01:31:45,679
i was annihilated like that must be what

2734
01:31:49,750 --> 01:31:46,560
death is like

2735
01:31:50,870 --> 01:31:49,760
complete non-being and so sam posed the

2736
01:31:53,110 --> 01:31:50,880
question to rupert

2737
01:31:54,550 --> 01:31:53,120
and they got derailed before rupert

2738
01:31:56,629 --> 01:31:54,560
could answer

2739
01:31:58,470 --> 01:31:56,639
um because the you know you and i can

2740
01:32:00,310 --> 01:31:58,480
tease this out intellectually well

2741
01:32:01,669 --> 01:32:00,320
is it just that memory formation is gone

2742
01:32:02,709 --> 01:32:01,679
and therefore you can't remember

2743
01:32:05,270 --> 01:32:02,719
anything about it

2744
01:32:06,550 --> 01:32:05,280
and so therefore you're still aware at

2745
01:32:08,229 --> 01:32:06,560
some level but you're not forming

2746
01:32:08,950 --> 01:32:08,239
memories and many have posited this

2747
01:32:10,629 --> 01:32:08,960
including

2748
01:32:12,790 --> 01:32:10,639
those who have experiences of anesthesia

2749
01:32:15,750 --> 01:32:12,800
awareness where they remember being

2750
01:32:17,910 --> 01:32:15,760
you know being cut on and so on can i

2751
01:32:22,310 --> 01:32:17,920
answer what i think rupert may say

2752
01:32:25,110 --> 01:32:22,320
sure did you experience non-experience

2753
01:32:25,590 --> 01:32:25,120
yeah that's exactly what he might say

2754
01:32:27,510 --> 01:32:25,600
and he

2755
01:32:29,590 --> 01:32:27,520
so just because you didn't feel a level

2756
01:32:30,950 --> 01:32:29,600
of continuity you still experienced you

2757
01:32:32,709 --> 01:32:30,960
were only awake you were only

2758
01:32:35,990 --> 01:32:32,719
experiencing what you experienced

2759
01:32:39,030 --> 01:32:36,000
and to at that level there was

2760
01:32:41,270 --> 01:32:39,040
there's continuity between experience i

2761
01:32:42,629 --> 01:32:41,280
i i think you nailed it i think and

2762
01:32:45,910 --> 01:32:42,639
what's interesting though so

2763
01:32:48,229 --> 01:32:45,920
my mind told a story after the fact of

2764
01:32:49,350 --> 01:32:48,239
what that experience was it constructed

2765
01:32:50,790 --> 01:32:49,360
a reality

2766
01:32:52,790 --> 01:32:50,800
to fit you know because i'd never

2767
01:32:56,149 --> 01:32:52,800
experienced that i was like what

2768
01:32:57,669 --> 01:32:56,159
this is crazy and um and

2769
01:32:59,750 --> 01:32:57,679
and so after the fact it was like well

2770
01:33:01,590 --> 01:32:59,760
maybe i was maybe consciousness turned

2771
01:33:02,310 --> 01:33:01,600
off or maybe i wasn't forming memories

2772
01:33:03,669 --> 01:33:02,320
and maybe

2773
01:33:05,350 --> 01:33:03,679
and it stuck with me like oh that was

2774
01:33:07,830 --> 01:33:05,360
the one experience i had of

2775
01:33:08,950 --> 01:33:07,840
you know propofol just you're out were

2776
01:33:11,430 --> 01:33:08,960
you in the mouth

2777
01:33:12,310 --> 01:33:11,440
afterward what's that were you affable

2778
01:33:15,030 --> 01:33:12,320
afterward

2779
01:33:16,390 --> 01:33:15,040
so this congenial this here's something

2780
01:33:17,669 --> 01:33:16,400
interesting that i found out after the

2781
01:33:19,990 --> 01:33:17,679
fact so propofol

2782
01:33:21,510 --> 01:33:20,000
tends to do that people wake up they

2783
01:33:23,189 --> 01:33:21,520
don't remember and they're really

2784
01:33:25,510 --> 01:33:23,199
amorous with the nurses and

2785
01:33:26,950 --> 01:33:25,520
you know like hey baby you know and the

2786
01:33:28,229 --> 01:33:26,960
thing is my surgery was a penis

2787
01:33:30,390 --> 01:33:28,239
reduction surgery

2788
01:33:31,990 --> 01:33:30,400
so it's something that most men you know

2789
01:33:32,950 --> 01:33:32,000
dream of and i just had to do it out of

2790
01:33:36,070 --> 01:33:32,960
necessity

2791
01:33:38,790 --> 01:33:36,080
so so so the thing was i had

2792
01:33:41,350 --> 01:33:38,800
i had the sense looking at the nurse

2793
01:33:43,830 --> 01:33:41,360
afterwards that i'd been yapping

2794
01:33:45,510 --> 01:33:43,840
and i didn't ask her but i sensed that

2795
01:33:47,270 --> 01:33:45,520
was the case now if that were true

2796
01:33:48,629 --> 01:33:47,280
then any experience i had afterwards of

2797
01:33:50,629 --> 01:33:48,639
discontinuity

2798
01:33:52,310 --> 01:33:50,639
has no relevance to reality because i

2799
01:33:54,229 --> 01:33:52,320
was awakened talking

2800
01:33:55,510 --> 01:33:54,239
right and a lot of people who've had

2801
01:33:57,030 --> 01:33:55,520
propofol will say the same thing they'll

2802
01:33:58,709 --> 01:33:57,040
have absolutely no memory of that it's

2803
01:34:00,870 --> 01:33:58,719
an amnestic so you just

2804
01:34:02,149 --> 01:34:00,880
memory's gone right so re actually

2805
01:34:03,030 --> 01:34:02,159
rethinking about this because i hadn't

2806
01:34:04,229 --> 01:34:03,040
thought about it

2807
01:34:07,189 --> 01:34:04,239
you know you've prompted me to think

2808
01:34:09,110 --> 01:34:07,199
about this which you seem to freaking do

2809
01:34:10,310 --> 01:34:09,120
in your interviews so many of your

2810
01:34:11,669 --> 01:34:10,320
guests go you know i've never thought of

2811
01:34:12,629 --> 01:34:11,679
it this way i've actually never thought

2812
01:34:14,629 --> 01:34:12,639
of it this way

2813
01:34:16,870 --> 01:34:14,639
until kurt said something that prompted

2814
01:34:20,149 --> 01:34:16,880
me that's one of your true gifts man

2815
01:34:23,350 --> 01:34:20,159
so think about it now again i'm like

2816
01:34:25,189 --> 01:34:23,360
probably my assessment of it is not

2817
01:34:27,030 --> 01:34:25,199
correct but that was something that sam

2818
01:34:28,390 --> 01:34:27,040
had challenged uh rupert on and then

2819
01:34:30,390 --> 01:34:28,400
they'd kind of gone off the rails

2820
01:34:32,070 --> 01:34:30,400
a little bit after that i remember being

2821
01:34:33,350 --> 01:34:32,080
under anesthesia i remember waking up

2822
01:34:34,950 --> 01:34:33,360
and just telling the person next to his

2823
01:34:35,350 --> 01:34:34,960
wisdom teeth telling the person next to

2824
01:34:37,430 --> 01:34:35,360
me

2825
01:34:38,709 --> 01:34:37,440
it's great you're going to be fine i

2826
01:34:42,070 --> 01:34:38,719
just love

2827
01:34:43,270 --> 01:34:42,080
reassuring this person but i don't think

2828
01:34:44,870 --> 01:34:43,280
i was funny

2829
01:34:46,629 --> 01:34:44,880
i think that was it and then i just

2830
01:34:49,270 --> 01:34:46,639
remember being wobbly toward the car

2831
01:34:51,109 --> 01:34:49,280
okay getting back to non-dualism i have

2832
01:34:54,790 --> 01:34:51,119
some questions for you if you don't mind

2833
01:34:56,870 --> 01:34:54,800
yeah is the claim that

2834
01:34:59,109 --> 01:34:56,880
is that what's fundamental what's

2835
01:35:16,149 --> 01:34:59,119
indispensable primitive and so on

2836
01:35:19,910 --> 01:35:18,550
now i'm i can't claim to be expert or

2837
01:35:23,510 --> 01:35:19,920
stable in this

2838
01:35:27,270 --> 01:35:25,109
try to imagine and this is not

2839
01:35:31,830 --> 01:35:27,280
imaginable but it you can kind of

2840
01:35:34,310 --> 01:35:31,840
glance at it imagine that there's

2841
01:35:35,990 --> 01:35:34,320
nothing but that even nothing is not the

2842
01:35:36,790 --> 01:35:36,000
right descriptor because that implies

2843
01:35:38,709 --> 01:35:36,800
that there

2844
01:35:40,709 --> 01:35:38,719
is a thing that you're comparing it to

2845
01:35:45,430 --> 01:35:40,719
it's almost just

2846
01:35:49,350 --> 01:35:47,270
okay okay well if it's potential to me

2847
01:35:50,870 --> 01:35:49,360
that means that there's a pluristic

2848
01:35:52,149 --> 01:35:50,880
notion it's not non-dual

2849
01:35:55,109 --> 01:35:52,159
because there's multiple within a

2850
01:36:01,510 --> 01:35:55,119
potential you could be many

2851
01:36:09,350 --> 01:36:05,510
um that potentiality

2852
01:36:13,669 --> 01:36:09,360
by its nature arises

2853
01:36:18,070 --> 01:36:16,629
that are in themselves made of nothing

2854
01:36:19,510 --> 01:36:18,080
it's almost like you know rupert's

2855
01:36:22,950 --> 01:36:19,520
analogy of

2856
01:36:25,910 --> 01:36:22,960
the the film on a the film projector

2857
01:36:27,910 --> 01:36:25,920
putting light on a screen if the screen

2858
01:36:29,669 --> 01:36:27,920
was this empty potential

2859
01:36:31,750 --> 01:36:29,679
you know the light dances on it but it's

2860
01:36:35,270 --> 01:36:31,760
not substantial in itself

2861
01:36:37,590 --> 01:36:35,280
it's it's it's a um

2862
01:36:38,950 --> 01:36:37,600
it's a manifestation that this thing

2863
01:36:41,750 --> 01:36:38,960
just does it's like

2864
01:36:42,709 --> 01:36:41,760
a primitive urge to just manifest and

2865
01:36:45,830 --> 01:36:42,719
even what i'm saying

2866
01:36:48,229 --> 01:36:45,840
sounds crazy but that's what it

2867
01:36:49,750 --> 01:36:48,239
kind of feels like when you glance on

2868
01:36:52,390 --> 01:36:49,760
that and there are those who've

2869
01:36:54,310 --> 01:36:52,400
really gone deep into that experience my

2870
01:36:55,990 --> 01:36:54,320
friend angelo would describe it as

2871
01:36:58,229 --> 01:36:56,000
it's the experience of everything

2872
01:36:59,990 --> 01:36:58,239
happening like a foaming

2873
01:37:01,510 --> 01:37:00,000
gel like phenomenon are just happening

2874
01:37:03,990 --> 01:37:01,520
color shape sounds

2875
01:37:04,950 --> 01:37:04,000
out of even to call it nothing is saying

2876
01:37:06,790 --> 01:37:04,960
too much

2877
01:37:08,310 --> 01:37:06,800
it's interesting to call it nothing is

2878
01:37:09,669 --> 01:37:08,320
saying too much he's saying to call it

2879
01:37:11,030 --> 01:37:09,679
nothing and he'll say this he goes you

2880
01:37:13,350 --> 01:37:11,040
call it nothing and you're already doing

2881
01:37:16,629 --> 01:37:13,360
it a disservice it's not that it's

2882
01:37:19,350 --> 01:37:16,639
it it in this it it foams this reality

2883
01:37:21,910 --> 01:37:19,360
that is entirely empty of substance

2884
01:37:22,790 --> 01:37:21,920
and that then foams into the same no

2885
01:37:25,030 --> 01:37:22,800
thing

2886
01:37:27,270 --> 01:37:25,040
that it came from and that's happening

2887
01:37:29,270 --> 01:37:27,280
every iota of the now

2888
01:37:30,709 --> 01:37:29,280
and that's reality and he says one other

2889
01:37:32,709 --> 01:37:30,719
thing that he says at the very

2890
01:37:33,830 --> 01:37:32,719
end of this sort of journey is that the

2891
01:37:35,270 --> 01:37:33,840
one thing you realize that's very

2892
01:37:36,390 --> 01:37:35,280
destabilizing to people who when you

2893
01:37:39,350 --> 01:37:36,400
tell it to them is

2894
01:37:41,189 --> 01:37:39,360
there's no way that things actually are

2895
01:37:43,109 --> 01:37:41,199
and even that statement

2896
01:37:45,189 --> 01:37:43,119
makes no sense to the to the rational

2897
01:37:49,189 --> 01:37:45,199
mind but he says that is the truth

2898
01:37:51,270 --> 01:37:49,199
it's just happening by itself and

2899
01:37:52,550 --> 01:37:51,280
even that is like and now i'm trying to

2900
01:37:53,510 --> 01:37:52,560
describe how he would describe it and i

2901
01:37:55,750 --> 01:37:53,520
can't

2902
01:37:57,669 --> 01:37:55,760
and uh it's really fascinating and you

2903
01:37:58,550 --> 01:37:57,679
wonder if he's in any way barking up the

2904
01:38:00,470 --> 01:37:58,560
right tree

2905
01:38:01,990 --> 01:38:00,480
that the true nature of reality could be

2906
01:38:03,590 --> 01:38:02,000
even more and

2907
01:38:05,830 --> 01:38:03,600
wonderful and i said well isn't that

2908
01:38:08,790 --> 01:38:05,840
nihilism isn't that

2909
01:38:09,990 --> 01:38:08,800
my next point it sounds like a pretext

2910
01:38:11,669 --> 01:38:10,000
to nihilism

2911
01:38:13,109 --> 01:38:11,679
right it sounds like well that's the

2912
01:38:14,709 --> 01:38:13,119
worst thing i've ever heard and actually

2913
01:38:17,510 --> 01:38:14,719
as the human mind

2914
01:38:18,310 --> 01:38:17,520
reads it in his book on the stages of

2915
01:38:19,750 --> 01:38:18,320
awakening

2916
01:38:20,870 --> 01:38:19,760
he says listen guys don't read this if

2917
01:38:22,550 --> 01:38:20,880
you're easily triggered because this is

2918
01:38:23,990 --> 01:38:22,560
going to trigger some feelings for you

2919
01:38:25,910 --> 01:38:24,000
and all i'm going to tell you is it's

2920
01:38:27,430 --> 01:38:25,920
okay the punch line is everything's

2921
01:38:28,470 --> 01:38:27,440
better than okay it's beyond okay and

2922
01:38:28,950 --> 01:38:28,480
you're like what the hell do you mean by

2923
01:38:30,149 --> 01:38:28,960
that

2924
01:38:32,149 --> 01:38:30,159
and you read it and you just want to

2925
01:38:33,030 --> 01:38:32,159
throw the book in the trash you're like

2926
01:38:34,950 --> 01:38:33,040
i'm sorry

2927
01:38:36,229 --> 01:38:34,960
the punch line is everything's nothing

2928
01:38:37,030 --> 01:38:36,239
and it's coming into nothing and there's

2929
01:38:38,790 --> 01:38:37,040
no way things

2930
01:38:40,149 --> 01:38:38,800
are what the hell that sounds like the

2931
01:38:42,870 --> 01:38:40,159
worst kind of nihilism

2932
01:38:44,470 --> 01:38:42,880
it defeats any human impulse to even be

2933
01:38:47,830 --> 01:38:44,480
compassionate like why

2934
01:38:51,510 --> 01:38:47,840
and what he will say is trust me

2935
01:38:53,750 --> 01:38:51,520
when you experience it you will

2936
01:38:55,109 --> 01:38:53,760
you will know that it is beyond okay it

2937
01:38:57,590 --> 01:38:55,119
is actually

2938
01:38:59,030 --> 01:38:57,600
the best news you could ever imagine and

2939
01:39:01,189 --> 01:38:59,040
he says you can't describe

2940
01:39:03,270 --> 01:39:01,199
that in words it's just everything

2941
01:39:06,310 --> 01:39:03,280
happens perfectly as it should

2942
01:39:07,990 --> 01:39:06,320
and that means that even suffering even

2943
01:39:10,709 --> 01:39:08,000
the experience of suffering

2944
01:39:12,629 --> 01:39:10,719
is exactly in its right place at its

2945
01:39:15,189 --> 01:39:12,639
right time and there's

2946
01:39:15,990 --> 01:39:15,199
no you to fret about it but it doesn't

2947
01:39:18,229 --> 01:39:16,000
mean you don't

2948
01:39:20,310 --> 01:39:18,239
feel it intensely and that you can't

2949
01:39:22,870 --> 01:39:20,320
experience life in the relative

2950
01:39:23,990 --> 01:39:22,880
in a in a profound way that you can bear

2951
01:39:24,950 --> 01:39:24,000
the kind of suffering that you would

2952
01:39:27,830 --> 01:39:24,960
never have beard

2953
01:39:28,870 --> 01:39:27,840
feeling you're a this and again that

2954
01:39:31,830 --> 01:39:28,880
sounds crazy

2955
01:39:32,790 --> 01:39:31,840
he says until you experience it what i'm

2956
01:39:34,790 --> 01:39:32,800
wondering is

2957
01:39:35,990 --> 01:39:34,800
you just mentioned while we're talking

2958
01:39:41,430 --> 01:39:36,000
about nihilism

2959
01:39:44,229 --> 01:39:41,440
why isn't where in that is

2960
01:39:45,030 --> 01:39:44,239
the statement that promulgating infinite

2961
01:39:48,950 --> 01:39:45,040
suffering or

2962
01:39:52,550 --> 01:39:48,960
or a large amount of suffering wrong

2963
01:39:54,229 --> 01:39:52,560
so why why can i not run amok

2964
01:39:56,149 --> 01:39:54,239
and murder and rape and pillage and so

2965
01:40:00,070 --> 01:39:56,159
on yeah it's all

2966
01:40:01,030 --> 01:40:00,080
nothing it's all okay where's the moral

2967
01:40:03,510 --> 01:40:01,040
compass

2968
01:40:04,790 --> 01:40:03,520
like where where's the directive when we

2969
01:40:06,470 --> 01:40:04,800
had god we could say

2970
01:40:07,990 --> 01:40:06,480
there's a judgment here there's a

2971
01:40:09,830 --> 01:40:08,000
morality that's set

2972
01:40:11,350 --> 01:40:09,840
out in the ten commandments and so on

2973
01:40:13,270 --> 01:40:11,360
thou shalt not

2974
01:40:15,270 --> 01:40:13,280
where is the morality in an emptiness

2975
01:40:16,870 --> 01:40:15,280
that manifests reality

2976
01:40:19,350 --> 01:40:16,880
only in the present moment with no

2977
01:40:21,830 --> 01:40:19,360
future or past and no self

2978
01:40:22,790 --> 01:40:21,840
what's to keep you from running amok or

2979
01:40:25,910 --> 01:40:22,800
what's to say

2980
01:40:29,189 --> 01:40:25,920
you shouldn't well

2981
01:40:31,750 --> 01:40:29,199
here is what they would say

2982
01:40:32,709 --> 01:40:31,760
and again take it with what what you

2983
01:40:34,149 --> 01:40:32,719
will

2984
01:40:36,709 --> 01:40:34,159
when you've had that experience where

2985
01:40:39,750 --> 01:40:36,719
you act from that space

2986
01:40:43,189 --> 01:40:39,760
there is no desire to do anything

2987
01:40:46,550 --> 01:40:43,199
to another manifestation of this

2988
01:40:47,350 --> 01:40:46,560
because if you are doing it it's all one

2989
01:40:50,310 --> 01:40:47,360
thing so

2990
01:40:51,830 --> 01:40:50,320
what's even the point of hurting someone

2991
01:40:54,629 --> 01:40:51,840
and i had one person who

2992
01:40:56,310 --> 01:40:54,639
was wide awake who had this experience

2993
01:40:57,189 --> 01:40:56,320
to an extreme realization who i've

2994
01:40:58,629 --> 01:40:57,199
spoken with

2995
01:41:00,390 --> 01:40:58,639
to the point where just talking to him

2996
01:41:01,750 --> 01:41:00,400
will put you in the in a state

2997
01:41:03,669 --> 01:41:01,760
and he was the one who pointed me to

2998
01:41:03,990 --> 01:41:03,679
that suta that says in the scene will be

2999
01:41:05,669 --> 01:41:04,000
merely

3000
01:41:07,750 --> 01:41:05,679
what is seen and when he did that with

3001
01:41:09,510 --> 01:41:07,760
me i had the experience

3002
01:41:10,950 --> 01:41:09,520
that was the guy who was 24 when he had

3003
01:41:12,790 --> 01:41:10,960
that experience

3004
01:41:14,790 --> 01:41:12,800
different guy so this is this is a guy

3005
01:41:18,310 --> 01:41:14,800
who's an electrician

3006
01:41:22,550 --> 01:41:18,320
who had an awakening in recovery

3007
01:41:25,990 --> 01:41:22,560
for alcohol you know in his early 30s

3008
01:41:27,109 --> 01:41:26,000
family and had a profound awakening and

3009
01:41:28,950 --> 01:41:27,119
since has

3010
01:41:30,870 --> 01:41:28,960
further realized you know further

3011
01:41:32,470 --> 01:41:30,880
stabilized his realization and

3012
01:41:34,629 --> 01:41:32,480
and was pointed to me by another person

3013
01:41:36,310 --> 01:41:34,639
and and uh what he says is because i

3014
01:41:37,750 --> 01:41:36,320
asked him this exactly this i said well

3015
01:41:39,669 --> 01:41:37,760
what you're describing to me now because

3016
01:41:41,590 --> 01:41:39,679
he'll just talk he will

3017
01:41:43,350 --> 01:41:41,600
try to point for you know an hour

3018
01:41:45,590 --> 01:41:43,360
straight and i'll sit on the phone

3019
01:41:46,790 --> 01:41:45,600
just being pointed to trying not to

3020
01:41:48,870 --> 01:41:46,800
intellectualize too much but

3021
01:41:51,189 --> 01:41:48,880
you can't help it so i say what's to

3022
01:41:53,430 --> 01:41:51,199
stop you from being a complete [\h__\h]

3023
01:41:55,189 --> 01:41:53,440
because it sounds to me that you still

3024
01:41:56,950 --> 01:41:55,199
have two daughters that you deeply love

3025
01:41:58,310 --> 01:41:56,960
and a wife that you deeply love and you

3026
01:42:00,229 --> 01:41:58,320
continue to do your job as an

3027
01:42:01,430 --> 01:42:00,239
electrician and

3028
01:42:03,030 --> 01:42:01,440
yet you're telling me the nature of

3029
01:42:04,870 --> 01:42:03,040
reality is this and by the way he points

3030
01:42:06,310 --> 01:42:04,880
to exactly the same thing that angelo

3031
01:42:08,870 --> 01:42:06,320
pointed to

3032
01:42:09,590 --> 01:42:08,880
and so what's the deal and he goes he

3033
01:42:12,709 --> 01:42:09,600
goes bro

3034
01:42:15,350 --> 01:42:12,719
i just got to tell you when you

3035
01:42:17,510 --> 01:42:15,360
experience this you have no like i will

3036
01:42:18,550 --> 01:42:17,520
not step on an ant if i can avoid it i

3037
01:42:20,629 --> 01:42:18,560
will not

3038
01:42:22,149 --> 01:42:20,639
harm anything i will go out of my way i

3039
01:42:23,990 --> 01:42:22,159
hate cockroaches i now

3040
01:42:25,189 --> 01:42:24,000
pick them up with a thing and throw them

3041
01:42:26,709 --> 01:42:25,199
outside because

3042
01:42:28,390 --> 01:42:26,719
hurting another thing it feels like i'm

3043
01:42:30,310 --> 01:42:28,400
hurting myself

3044
01:42:31,750 --> 01:42:30,320
and i and i i couldn't comprehend that

3045
01:42:33,270 --> 01:42:31,760
even intellectually i still with there's

3046
01:42:35,910 --> 01:42:33,280
no self who are you hurting

3047
01:42:36,950 --> 01:42:35,920
but he said they're just it's just that

3048
01:42:39,270 --> 01:42:36,960
way

3049
01:42:40,149 --> 01:42:39,280
now that then you have to juxtapose with

3050
01:42:41,510 --> 01:42:40,159
people who

3051
01:42:43,270 --> 01:42:41,520
apparently have had quite profound

3052
01:42:46,310 --> 01:42:43,280
awakenings who behave in

3053
01:42:48,229 --> 01:42:46,320
reprehensible ways you know um

3054
01:42:49,350 --> 01:42:48,239
the andrew cohens and certain zen

3055
01:42:51,430 --> 01:42:49,360
masters and so on who

3056
01:42:53,030 --> 01:42:51,440
you know sexually taken advantage of

3057
01:42:55,830 --> 01:42:53,040
their students and

3058
01:42:58,070 --> 01:42:55,840
have never done the work on themselves

3059
01:42:59,910 --> 01:42:58,080
they've like spiritually bypassed

3060
01:43:01,270 --> 01:42:59,920
all their own baggage and that baggage

3061
01:43:02,790 --> 01:43:01,280
still comes out unconsciously or

3062
01:43:04,629 --> 01:43:02,800
consciously and they behave in

3063
01:43:06,390 --> 01:43:04,639
what we would classify as reprehensible

3064
01:43:11,189 --> 01:43:06,400
ways so

3065
01:43:13,189 --> 01:43:11,199
you know i i don't know the answer

3066
01:43:14,870 --> 01:43:13,199
okay so i understand if you were to

3067
01:43:16,390 --> 01:43:14,880
experience that you get to a place where

3068
01:43:18,870 --> 01:43:16,400
you would no longer act in a

3069
01:43:19,990 --> 01:43:18,880
manner that promulgates suffering but

3070
01:43:21,510 --> 01:43:20,000
what's to say that

3071
01:43:23,430 --> 01:43:21,520
those who are currently promulgating

3072
01:43:26,709 --> 01:43:23,440
suffering

3073
01:43:29,990 --> 01:43:26,719
are wrong to do so yeah

3074
01:43:32,310 --> 01:43:30,000
they they aren't from this viewpoint

3075
01:43:35,750 --> 01:43:32,320
they're just right so it doesn't so this

3076
01:43:37,270 --> 01:43:35,760
sounds like so this is nihilism then no

3077
01:43:38,550 --> 01:43:37,280
so again i guess it depends on how

3078
01:43:39,350 --> 01:43:38,560
you're talking about nihilism but but

3079
01:43:41,910 --> 01:43:39,360
the idea that

3080
01:43:43,270 --> 01:43:41,920
you would you'd be compelled not to

3081
01:43:45,270 --> 01:43:43,280
generate suffering

3082
01:43:46,709 --> 01:43:45,280
so what you exude in the in the world

3083
01:43:48,870 --> 01:43:46,719
would be something that

3084
01:43:50,070 --> 01:43:48,880
actually reduces suffering but you could

3085
01:43:51,990 --> 01:43:50,080
look at suffering

3086
01:43:54,149 --> 01:43:52,000
and what angela describes to me is he

3087
01:43:55,590 --> 01:43:54,159
says when he sees suffering he feels it

3088
01:43:58,470 --> 01:43:55,600
intensely and purely

3089
01:43:59,030 --> 01:43:58,480
but without self he feels it and there

3090
01:44:02,390 --> 01:43:59,040
is

3091
01:44:04,470 --> 01:44:02,400
you don't

3092
01:44:06,070 --> 01:44:04,480
want to tolerate suffering and he told

3093
01:44:07,510 --> 01:44:06,080
me the story actually about

3094
01:44:09,830 --> 01:44:07,520
i can't repeat the story but it was

3095
01:44:11,830 --> 01:44:09,840
about standing up for somebody

3096
01:44:13,350 --> 01:44:11,840
in a very difficult situation where he

3097
01:44:16,790 --> 01:44:13,360
had to intervene

3098
01:44:18,629 --> 01:44:16,800
and this is as a fully awake person so

3099
01:44:20,229 --> 01:44:18,639
it's interesting and again not being in

3100
01:44:23,030 --> 01:44:20,239
that state i can't speak

3101
01:44:24,149 --> 01:44:23,040
from that state but the sense i get is

3102
01:44:25,590 --> 01:44:24,159
it is okay now

3103
01:44:28,709 --> 01:44:25,600
one thing i want to clarify that i said

3104
01:44:30,229 --> 01:44:28,719
about these gurus who go around um

3105
01:44:32,149 --> 01:44:30,239
yeah i think this is a very important

3106
01:44:33,270 --> 01:44:32,159
thing that angelo pointed out to me and

3107
01:44:36,550 --> 01:44:33,280
i think it's true

3108
01:44:38,870 --> 01:44:36,560
from my own limited experience

3109
01:44:40,950 --> 01:44:38,880
the the ego mind in other words our mind

3110
01:44:43,510 --> 01:44:40,960
our structures of conditioning and so on

3111
01:44:44,149 --> 01:44:43,520
it does not take waking up to this

3112
01:44:46,709 --> 01:44:44,159
lightly

3113
01:44:47,990 --> 01:44:46,719
it doesn't take it sitting down it even

3114
01:44:51,030 --> 01:44:48,000
after awakenings

3115
01:44:52,870 --> 01:44:51,040
people then have to contend with strong

3116
01:44:54,870 --> 01:44:52,880
unconscious feelings you know what

3117
01:44:56,629 --> 01:44:54,880
young would call the shadow and all of

3118
01:44:58,470 --> 01:44:56,639
this those arise

3119
01:44:59,910 --> 01:44:58,480
and in fact they're felt you can't avoid

3120
01:45:02,070 --> 01:44:59,920
them now because the

3121
01:45:03,990 --> 01:45:02,080
the mechanisms of thought projection to

3122
01:45:04,310 --> 01:45:04,000
get out of feeling difficult emotions

3123
01:45:07,590 --> 01:45:04,320
and

3124
01:45:08,870 --> 01:45:07,600
becomes untenable it becomes

3125
01:45:12,310 --> 01:45:08,880
uncomfortable for you so

3126
01:45:14,070 --> 01:45:12,320
you have to face this but some sometimes

3127
01:45:15,350 --> 01:45:14,080
and more often than not the ego

3128
01:45:18,470 --> 01:45:15,360
reasserts itself and

3129
01:45:20,070 --> 01:45:18,480
co-ops the story of awakening to i am

3130
01:45:23,189 --> 01:45:20,080
the awakened one

3131
01:45:24,950 --> 01:45:23,199
who now is the guru who now has power

3132
01:45:26,390 --> 01:45:24,960
who now unconsciously is getting

3133
01:45:28,629 --> 01:45:26,400
validation from the students

3134
01:45:30,470 --> 01:45:28,639
who now is going to fulfill some of

3135
01:45:32,149 --> 01:45:30,480
these unconscious desires for worthiness

3136
01:45:32,950 --> 01:45:32,159
by having sex with a student or whatever

3137
01:45:35,669 --> 01:45:32,960
it is

3138
01:45:37,109 --> 01:45:35,679
so i think that's true and angela's

3139
01:45:39,270 --> 01:45:37,119
pointed out to me said even some of the

3140
01:45:41,750 --> 01:45:39,280
biggest teachers that you see on youtube

3141
01:45:43,430 --> 01:45:41,760
they have signs of this kind of ego

3142
01:45:45,430 --> 01:45:43,440
thing everybody does because

3143
01:45:47,109 --> 01:45:45,440
that's just we're so conditioned as

3144
01:45:48,550 --> 01:45:47,119
humans it's it's very difficult to

3145
01:45:51,830 --> 01:45:48,560
transcend it entirely

3146
01:45:53,109 --> 01:45:51,840
and still live in the relative world so

3147
01:45:55,030 --> 01:45:53,119
you know he says you know even when you

3148
01:45:56,870 --> 01:45:55,040
start spiritual pursuits the ego sitting

3149
01:45:58,390 --> 01:45:56,880
there in a hammock sipping a mojito

3150
01:45:59,510 --> 01:45:58,400
going oh you want to do spirituality i

3151
01:46:01,830 --> 01:45:59,520
got you i've been doing this for

3152
01:46:04,229 --> 01:46:01,840
thousands of years i'll even help you

3153
01:46:05,669 --> 01:46:04,239
and it kind of co-opts the story and i

3154
01:46:07,350 --> 01:46:05,679
i'm actually guilty of that too even

3155
01:46:08,470 --> 01:46:07,360
telling the story from a position of ego

3156
01:46:10,790 --> 01:46:08,480
feels

3157
01:46:13,030 --> 01:46:10,800
a little creepy right what would he say

3158
01:46:14,790 --> 01:46:13,040
what was this person's name again

3159
01:46:16,470 --> 01:46:14,800
angelo delulo i've done a few shows with

3160
01:46:20,070 --> 01:46:16,480
him i can link you up with him sure

3161
01:46:21,830 --> 01:46:20,080
angela would what would angelo

3162
01:46:24,149 --> 01:46:21,840
in order to stop a larger amount of

3163
01:46:26,390 --> 01:46:24,159
suffering

3164
01:46:28,950 --> 01:46:26,400
commit himself to a smaller amount of

3165
01:46:31,910 --> 01:46:28,960
suffering so for example

3166
01:46:33,350 --> 01:46:31,920
you hit the child in order to stop them

3167
01:46:36,709 --> 01:46:33,360
from

3168
01:46:39,990 --> 01:46:36,719
jumping down a stairwell or

3169
01:46:41,990 --> 01:46:40,000
you execute someone if they said

3170
01:46:43,430 --> 01:46:42,000
as soon as i'm out of this prison even

3171
01:46:47,109 --> 01:46:43,440
within the prison i'm going to

3172
01:46:48,950 --> 01:46:47,119
harm and torture and maim so is he for

3173
01:46:50,390 --> 01:46:48,960
what would he do in that situation or

3174
01:46:52,149 --> 01:46:50,400
just let's imagine a fight is about to

3175
01:46:54,070 --> 01:46:52,159
break out and the only way

3176
01:46:55,750 --> 01:46:54,080
the only way to stop this person as far

3177
01:46:58,070 --> 01:46:55,760
as he can conceive

3178
01:46:59,350 --> 01:46:58,080
the only way is to knock this person on

3179
01:47:00,790 --> 01:46:59,360
their head creating a minor amount of

3180
01:47:03,430 --> 01:47:00,800
suffering in order to save a larger

3181
01:47:05,270 --> 01:47:03,440
amount what would he do

3182
01:47:07,750 --> 01:47:05,280
so i can't speak to what he would do i

3183
01:47:08,070 --> 01:47:07,760
can only give an example of what he has

3184
01:47:10,149 --> 01:47:08,080
done

3185
01:47:11,830 --> 01:47:10,159
and told me and that was in the process

3186
01:47:15,030 --> 01:47:11,840
of standing up for this person who was

3187
01:47:18,470 --> 01:47:15,040
much lower in a medical hierarchy

3188
01:47:21,750 --> 01:47:18,480
he had to tell some very difficult and

3189
01:47:25,270 --> 01:47:21,760
painful truths to another person

3190
01:47:28,310 --> 01:47:25,280
standing up and that

3191
01:47:30,229 --> 01:47:28,320
caused intense unpleasantness in the now

3192
01:47:31,910 --> 01:47:30,239
moment that it was happening and that's

3193
01:47:34,629 --> 01:47:31,920
how it was described to me

3194
01:47:35,750 --> 01:47:34,639
and so in a way it generated suffering

3195
01:47:37,590 --> 01:47:35,760
then and there

3196
01:47:38,950 --> 01:47:37,600
for the the object i don't know if it

3197
01:47:41,430 --> 01:47:38,960
generated suffering for

3198
01:47:42,629 --> 01:47:41,440
angelo i can't speak to that but it was

3199
01:47:45,030 --> 01:47:42,639
clear that it did

3200
01:47:46,950 --> 01:47:45,040
but the longer term consequence was a

3201
01:47:48,470 --> 01:47:46,960
relief of suffering and a changing of

3202
01:47:51,830 --> 01:47:48,480
behavior and so on

3203
01:47:52,709 --> 01:47:51,840
so it's really it's really tough to say

3204
01:47:54,310 --> 01:47:52,719
what he would do but

3205
01:47:56,310 --> 01:47:54,320
i think that that that's kind of how i

3206
01:47:56,950 --> 01:47:56,320
think about it and again i i you know

3207
01:48:00,229 --> 01:47:56,960
nobody's

3208
01:48:01,750 --> 01:48:00,239
i think our our humanness our ego mind

3209
01:48:03,830 --> 01:48:01,760
interposes and i want to read one

3210
01:48:05,590 --> 01:48:03,840
comment here in the thread on facebook

3211
01:48:06,950 --> 01:48:05,600
laura ann hartman says spiritual

3212
01:48:09,590 --> 01:48:06,960
bypasses

3213
01:48:10,950 --> 01:48:09,600
are toxic familiar with that term kurt

3214
01:48:12,310 --> 01:48:10,960
spiritual bypass

3215
01:48:14,149 --> 01:48:12,320
okay so this is what that means and it

3216
01:48:16,229 --> 01:48:14,159
points to this

3217
01:48:17,350 --> 01:48:16,239
spiritual bypass is where you wake up

3218
01:48:19,189 --> 01:48:17,360
spiritually in other words you're like

3219
01:48:20,709 --> 01:48:19,199
oh everything's one we're all

3220
01:48:21,270 --> 01:48:20,719
consciousness or whatever there's no

3221
01:48:23,189 --> 01:48:21,280
self

3222
01:48:24,629 --> 01:48:23,199
and you know i'm here now there's only

3223
01:48:27,830 --> 01:48:24,639
the now but you

3224
01:48:28,629 --> 01:48:27,840
never you use that to bypass all the

3225
01:48:30,149 --> 01:48:28,639
baggage

3226
01:48:32,470 --> 01:48:30,159
that you've been carrying around all

3227
01:48:34,870 --> 01:48:32,480
your neuroses and unconscious

3228
01:48:36,950 --> 01:48:34,880
uh issues and psychological baggage and

3229
01:48:38,390 --> 01:48:36,960
so you feel like you're very awake but

3230
01:48:39,830 --> 01:48:38,400
in reality you're acting in the world

3231
01:48:41,669 --> 01:48:39,840
and people will tell you you're kind of

3232
01:48:43,350 --> 01:48:41,679
a bigger [\h__\h] than you ever were

3233
01:48:45,830 --> 01:48:43,360
since you had this enlightenment

3234
01:48:47,669 --> 01:48:45,840
experience and

3235
01:48:49,270 --> 01:48:47,679
some people call that zen stink it's

3236
01:48:50,310 --> 01:48:49,280
like another another term for it like

3237
01:48:52,310 --> 01:48:50,320
you walk around like

3238
01:48:53,430 --> 01:48:52,320
you're this thing and and that's a real

3239
01:48:55,430 --> 01:48:53,440
phenomenon i think is

3240
01:48:57,350 --> 01:48:55,440
is people want to escape their pain by

3241
01:48:58,390 --> 01:48:57,360
bypassing ever addressing it now angelo

3242
01:48:59,750 --> 01:48:58,400
in his book

3243
01:49:00,870 --> 01:48:59,760
that he talked about on the show called

3244
01:49:02,470 --> 01:49:00,880
awake it's your turn it's like a

3245
01:49:05,030 --> 01:49:02,480
self-published thing it's on amazon

3246
01:49:06,470 --> 01:49:05,040
he has a whole chapter on like no you've

3247
01:49:09,830 --> 01:49:06,480
got to go then and dive

3248
01:49:12,470 --> 01:49:09,840
into your emotional emotional state and

3249
01:49:12,870 --> 01:49:12,480
feel what you're repressing and look at

3250
01:49:15,830 --> 01:49:12,880
thought

3251
01:49:17,510 --> 01:49:15,840
creates a sense of identity looking at

3252
01:49:20,070 --> 01:49:17,520
the structures of self

3253
01:49:21,510 --> 01:49:20,080
as they create themselves is the only

3254
01:49:23,350 --> 01:49:21,520
way to understand

3255
01:49:24,870 --> 01:49:23,360
how your mind's actually working and

3256
01:49:26,229 --> 01:49:24,880
then be liberated from the suffering

3257
01:49:28,470 --> 01:49:26,239
component

3258
01:49:30,310 --> 01:49:28,480
and one thing i'll say is one thing that

3259
01:49:31,109 --> 01:49:30,320
i have gotten the capacity to do through

3260
01:49:33,109 --> 01:49:31,119
practicing this

3261
01:49:34,550 --> 01:49:33,119
is when i'm in a state of extreme

3262
01:49:38,550 --> 01:49:34,560
suffering which happens

3263
01:49:40,310 --> 01:49:38,560
i will simply the something in my mind

3264
01:49:42,470 --> 01:49:40,320
triggers to remember oh

3265
01:49:43,910 --> 01:49:42,480
look what's happening and just watch

3266
01:49:45,750 --> 01:49:43,920
your mind for a second

3267
01:49:47,510 --> 01:49:45,760
and i'll go all right all right all

3268
01:49:50,229 --> 01:49:47,520
right oh man okay

3269
01:49:51,030 --> 01:49:50,239
feeling this here thoughts racing you

3270
01:49:54,149 --> 01:49:51,040
know

3271
01:49:57,270 --> 01:49:54,159
want to cry just really stressed

3272
01:49:57,589 --> 01:49:57,280
and and then just take a breath and feel

3273
01:50:01,270 --> 01:49:57,599
the

3274
01:50:04,390 --> 01:50:01,280
man dude

3275
01:50:06,470 --> 01:50:04,400
it is like it's like someone took

3276
01:50:08,870 --> 01:50:06,480
360 joules of electricity and

3277
01:50:10,390 --> 01:50:08,880
defibrillated your suffering right there

3278
01:50:12,149 --> 01:50:10,400
it doesn't mean it goes away but it

3279
01:50:15,109 --> 01:50:12,159
resets from a framework

3280
01:50:16,310 --> 01:50:15,119
where within just a few minutes it's

3281
01:50:18,470 --> 01:50:16,320
dissipated

3282
01:50:20,390 --> 01:50:18,480
enough that you're no longer suffering

3283
01:50:22,149 --> 01:50:20,400
like that and i would have thought i was

3284
01:50:24,149 --> 01:50:22,159
crazy if i had heard myself say what i

3285
01:50:24,790 --> 01:50:24,159
just said even like you know five years

3286
01:50:26,550 --> 01:50:24,800
ago

3287
01:50:28,870 --> 01:50:26,560
but it's absolutely in our power so the

3288
01:50:31,189 --> 01:50:28,880
question is whatever the ontological

3289
01:50:32,870 --> 01:50:31,199
metaphysics behind it is there may be

3290
01:50:34,629 --> 01:50:32,880
even simple tools here that

3291
01:50:35,910 --> 01:50:34,639
are practicable and it's not straight

3292
01:50:37,189 --> 01:50:35,920
meditation right because you said

3293
01:50:38,709 --> 01:50:37,199
something that i thought was

3294
01:50:40,629 --> 01:50:38,719
[\h__\h] spot on early in our

3295
01:50:41,830 --> 01:50:40,639
conversation man meditation does not

3296
01:50:43,109 --> 01:50:41,840
work for me it may work for others it

3297
01:50:44,310 --> 01:50:43,119
doesn't work for me for this kind of

3298
01:50:46,229 --> 01:50:44,320
thought storm and thing

3299
01:50:48,629 --> 01:50:46,239
i agree like this idea that oh suddenly

3300
01:50:50,310 --> 01:50:48,639
you're gonna focus on your breath

3301
01:50:51,990 --> 01:50:50,320
when the thoughts are coming you know

3302
01:50:53,430 --> 01:50:52,000
maybe those

3303
01:50:55,030 --> 01:50:53,440
should just trigger the more meta

3304
01:50:57,430 --> 01:50:55,040
awareness of hey this is thoughtstorm

3305
01:50:58,470 --> 01:50:57,440
that's not a breath-based vipassana

3306
01:51:00,790 --> 01:50:58,480
meditation you know

3307
01:51:02,070 --> 01:51:00,800
it's a different type of mindfulness but

3308
01:51:03,510 --> 01:51:02,080
it's not a class what we would

3309
01:51:04,830 --> 01:51:03,520
classically call meditation although

3310
01:51:06,070 --> 01:51:04,840
some would argue it's a type of

3311
01:51:07,430 --> 01:51:06,080
meditation

3312
01:51:09,830 --> 01:51:07,440
who are some of these people i should

3313
01:51:11,270 --> 01:51:09,840
speak to angelo's one of them

3314
01:51:12,790 --> 01:51:11,280
if you talk to angela you'd have a great

3315
01:51:14,149 --> 01:51:12,800
conversation it would be a way better

3316
01:51:14,950 --> 01:51:14,159
conversation than i've ever had with him

3317
01:51:19,030 --> 01:51:14,960
because you're so

3318
01:51:21,350 --> 01:51:19,040
uh good at that so angela delulo um

3319
01:51:24,390 --> 01:51:21,360
honestly there are people that are more

3320
01:51:26,950 --> 01:51:24,400
in the rupert spyra spectrum

3321
01:51:28,149 --> 01:51:26,960
on youtube that i don't think you would

3322
01:51:30,950 --> 01:51:28,159
add a lot

3323
01:51:32,709 --> 01:51:30,960
to the conversation talking with them

3324
01:51:36,070 --> 01:51:32,719
beyond what you did with rupert

3325
01:51:38,070 --> 01:51:36,080
but if you talk to angelo uh

3326
01:51:39,669 --> 01:51:38,080
you'd get a totally different angle like

3327
01:51:42,070 --> 01:51:39,679
a totally different angle

3328
01:51:42,709 --> 01:51:42,080
on this and i think i would i would pay

3329
01:51:45,510 --> 01:51:42,719
to see it

3330
01:51:46,390 --> 01:51:45,520
honestly um someone keeps calling me the

3331
01:51:47,990 --> 01:51:46,400
nerd that

3332
01:51:49,910 --> 01:51:48,000
sits at the front of the class who asks

3333
01:51:52,149 --> 01:51:49,920
questions it's the best

3334
01:51:54,550 --> 01:51:52,159
you're you're my hero dude you're you're

3335
01:51:55,990 --> 01:51:54,560
the you i i've been trying to formulate

3336
01:51:57,589 --> 01:51:56,000
you brother because

3337
01:51:59,270 --> 01:51:57,599
it's very rare that i'll watch somebody

3338
01:52:02,390 --> 01:51:59,280
on youtube and be and

3339
01:52:04,950 --> 01:52:02,400
and be simultaneously furious that that

3340
01:52:05,830 --> 01:52:04,960
i can't do that and at the same time

3341
01:52:08,149 --> 01:52:05,840
just like

3342
01:52:09,189 --> 01:52:08,159
jaw drops in awe and and there's

3343
01:52:12,510 --> 01:52:09,199
something in your

3344
01:52:15,669 --> 01:52:12,520
being something in how you your mix of

3345
01:52:18,629 --> 01:52:15,679
intellectualization which is crucial to

3346
01:52:19,030 --> 01:52:18,639
getting at understanding and openness

3347
01:52:21,990 --> 01:52:19,040
like

3348
01:52:22,950 --> 01:52:22,000
beginner's mind uh you know with rupert

3349
01:52:26,229 --> 01:52:22,960
he's he was

3350
01:52:27,589 --> 01:52:26,239
forced to talk about non-duality in ways

3351
01:52:30,629 --> 01:52:27,599
that i don't think he's probably

3352
01:52:32,229 --> 01:52:30,639
ever had to do it which is great

3353
01:52:33,830 --> 01:52:32,239
especially for a teacher where you're in

3354
01:52:35,030 --> 01:52:33,840
these patterns of like let me explain it

3355
01:52:35,669 --> 01:52:35,040
the way i know it's supposed to be

3356
01:52:37,990 --> 01:52:35,679
explained

3357
01:52:38,790 --> 01:52:38,000
and then along comes kurt and he's like

3358
01:52:41,350 --> 01:52:38,800
[\h__\h] i don't

3359
01:52:42,229 --> 01:52:41,360
here's what about this and and rupert's

3360
01:52:45,350 --> 01:52:42,239
just like

3361
01:52:46,790 --> 01:52:45,360
uh okay let me think about that or not

3362
01:52:48,550 --> 01:52:46,800
think about that let me make myself

3363
01:52:50,229 --> 01:52:48,560
present and have this stuff arise

3364
01:52:52,390 --> 01:52:50,239
it was awesome to watch man it was

3365
01:52:54,629 --> 01:52:52,400
really really really compelling

3366
01:52:55,669 --> 01:52:54,639
i think it comes from personal

3367
01:52:59,350 --> 01:52:55,679
humiliation

3368
01:53:01,830 --> 01:52:59,360
i've been humiliated by

3369
01:53:04,070 --> 01:53:01,840
these like you mentioned you used to be

3370
01:53:08,149 --> 01:53:04,080
a staunched atheist materialist

3371
01:53:10,149 --> 01:53:08,159
for let's say 15 years at least

3372
01:53:11,270 --> 01:53:10,159
so same with me i'm not saying that i'm

3373
01:53:15,030 --> 01:53:11,280
not that but i'm

3374
01:53:17,669 --> 01:53:15,040
opposite

3375
01:53:19,030 --> 01:53:17,679
and right there's so many experiences in

3376
01:53:22,390 --> 01:53:19,040
my life where i thought for

3377
01:53:25,669 --> 01:53:22,400
sure this is the case and then it's not

3378
01:53:27,589 --> 01:53:25,679
and it's come to the point where now

3379
01:53:29,830 --> 01:53:27,599
the more i trust my own instincts the

3380
01:53:33,109 --> 01:53:29,840
more i see actually i have questions

3381
01:53:34,790 --> 01:53:33,119
every single and everywhere

3382
01:53:36,229 --> 01:53:34,800
so here's an example that's near and

3383
01:53:39,830 --> 01:53:36,239
dear to you

3384
01:53:42,950 --> 01:53:39,840
with regard to the whole issue of

3385
01:53:48,310 --> 01:53:42,960
societal mistrust of science i

3386
01:53:51,669 --> 01:53:50,470
like i understand it on one level

3387
01:53:54,790 --> 01:53:51,679
there's some

3388
01:53:57,270 --> 01:53:54,800
has to occur

3389
01:53:57,830 --> 01:53:57,280
because not everyone can do their own

3390
01:54:01,350 --> 01:53:57,840
research

3391
01:54:06,830 --> 01:54:01,360
so some and society is based on trust

3392
01:54:12,709 --> 01:54:10,550
tenants bruited by the

3393
01:54:13,990 --> 01:54:12,719
institutions let's say and i'm not using

3394
01:54:14,470 --> 01:54:14,000
i'm not that's not square quotes i'm

3395
01:54:18,550 --> 01:54:14,480
just

3396
01:54:21,109 --> 01:54:18,560
quoting okay institutions that

3397
01:54:21,990 --> 01:54:21,119
like for example masks were good now

3398
01:54:25,510 --> 01:54:22,000
more masks were bad

3399
01:54:28,709 --> 01:54:25,520
then masks were good and so on that

3400
01:54:30,709 --> 01:54:28,719
that they raised my eyebrow when they

3401
01:54:32,310 --> 01:54:30,719
before wooden i was a wholehearted

3402
01:54:35,750 --> 01:54:32,320
truster of whatever

3403
01:54:36,709 --> 01:54:35,760
the scientific quote-unquote community

3404
01:54:40,149 --> 01:54:36,719
says

3405
01:54:41,510 --> 01:54:40,159
and now i just i want to look at the

3406
01:54:43,910 --> 01:54:41,520
research and i understand that

3407
01:54:44,550 --> 01:54:43,920
i don't want people to take away from

3408
01:54:46,790 --> 01:54:44,560
this

3409
01:54:48,629 --> 01:54:46,800
a justification for their own mistrust

3410
01:54:50,310 --> 01:54:48,639
because that's i see the same happening

3411
01:54:52,149 --> 01:54:50,320
on the one end that's saying no trust

3412
01:54:53,030 --> 01:54:52,159
whatever fauci is saying or whatever

3413
01:54:55,750 --> 01:54:53,040
whoever is saying

3414
01:54:57,910 --> 01:54:55,760
you know that's a hot topic right now on

3415
01:55:00,070 --> 01:54:57,920
the one end you have people who are

3416
01:55:01,669 --> 01:55:00,080
with a limpet characteristic adhering to

3417
01:55:03,950 --> 01:55:01,679
that but then at the other end

3418
01:55:06,709 --> 01:55:03,960
you have people who are completely

3419
01:55:08,550 --> 01:55:06,719
anti-vaccine

3420
01:55:10,310 --> 01:55:08,560
saying that they're anti-trust of

3421
01:55:13,510 --> 01:55:10,320
science but then if

3422
01:55:15,109 --> 01:55:13,520
if a scientific article came out saying

3423
01:55:17,109 --> 01:55:15,119
oh it turns out that the cove vaccines

3424
01:55:18,950 --> 01:55:17,119
were horrible you'd see the anti-vaxxers

3425
01:55:20,390 --> 01:55:18,960
jump on that and say yes you see but i

3426
01:55:21,589 --> 01:55:20,400
thought you mistrusted science why don't

3427
01:55:23,270 --> 01:55:21,599
you mistrust that as well

3428
01:55:25,669 --> 01:55:23,280
like you should be doubting everywhere

3429
01:55:27,910 --> 01:55:25,679
so for me i'm i'm doubting everywhere

3430
01:55:31,030 --> 01:55:27,920
and even my brother who is a professor

3431
01:55:34,310 --> 01:55:33,430
technically of finance statistical

3432
01:55:36,629 --> 01:55:34,320
finance

3433
01:55:38,709 --> 01:55:36,639
he said he it would take him a week to

3434
01:55:40,709 --> 01:55:38,719
go through any meta-analysis

3435
01:55:42,950 --> 01:55:40,719
because it's not trivial at all even for

3436
01:55:44,550 --> 01:55:42,960
a professor of statistics

3437
01:55:46,709 --> 01:55:44,560
that's another reason why i try to do as

3438
01:55:48,310 --> 01:55:46,719
much research as i can because i'm

3439
01:55:50,229 --> 01:55:48,320
i want to understand so when someone

3440
01:55:52,149 --> 01:55:50,239
makes a claim like

3441
01:55:54,390 --> 01:55:52,159
vaccines are good or vaccines are bad

3442
01:55:57,109 --> 01:55:54,400
and by the way zubin

3443
01:55:57,669 --> 01:55:57,119
there's so many oh okay you're getting

3444
01:55:59,669 --> 01:55:57,679
me

3445
01:56:01,109 --> 01:55:59,679
a bit excited now man i like where

3446
01:56:02,229 --> 01:56:01,119
you're going brother intrude into my

3447
01:56:06,950 --> 01:56:02,239
sleep

3448
01:56:09,589 --> 01:56:06,960
but something i dislike is

3449
01:56:10,790 --> 01:56:09,599
it's not just it's the labeling of

3450
01:56:13,669 --> 01:56:10,800
people who mistrust

3451
01:56:15,669 --> 01:56:13,679
science as they see them as just trump

3452
01:56:19,750 --> 01:56:15,679
supporters irrational trump supporters

3453
01:56:21,750 --> 01:56:19,760
and because one side hates trump so much

3454
01:56:24,390 --> 01:56:21,760
and trump has been attached to

3455
01:56:26,709 --> 01:56:24,400
anti-science then they view anyone who

3456
01:56:27,750 --> 01:56:26,719
is critical of whatever epilogue is

3457
01:56:30,149 --> 01:56:27,760
given by

3458
01:56:32,390 --> 01:56:30,159
the institutions quote unquote as trump

3459
01:56:34,950 --> 01:56:32,400
supporters who are racists and bigots

3460
01:56:37,109 --> 01:56:34,960
and anti-intellectual and people who are

3461
01:56:39,510 --> 01:56:37,119
intellectual one of the worst

3462
01:56:41,109 --> 01:56:39,520
their worst fears is not being

3463
01:56:42,629 --> 01:56:41,119
irrational it's being seen as being

3464
01:56:44,229 --> 01:56:42,639
irrational so they want to be on the

3465
01:56:46,709 --> 01:56:44,239
side of what's intellectual

3466
01:56:48,709 --> 01:56:46,719
and i think there's so much hidden

3467
01:56:49,669 --> 01:56:48,719
motivation behind people to believe what

3468
01:56:53,430 --> 01:56:49,679
they believe

3469
01:56:54,790 --> 01:56:53,440
that it takes so much self-investigation

3470
01:56:56,790 --> 01:56:54,800
you think

3471
01:56:58,709 --> 01:56:56,800
that you believe in vaccines or

3472
01:56:59,830 --> 01:56:58,719
anti-vaccines because you're on the side

3473
01:57:02,550 --> 01:56:59,840
of the truth

3474
01:57:05,109 --> 01:57:02,560
but you you peel away and you realize

3475
01:57:08,229 --> 01:57:05,119
there's something more

3476
01:57:10,950 --> 01:57:08,239
dark underneath man

3477
01:57:12,709 --> 01:57:10,960
uh what what you just unleashed is the

3478
01:57:14,149 --> 01:57:12,719
pandora's box that's kind of the central

3479
01:57:17,189 --> 01:57:14,159
premise of our platform during the

3480
01:57:21,830 --> 01:57:19,189
you do have to question everything you

3481
01:57:23,910 --> 01:57:21,840
do at the same time it's balancing with

3482
01:57:25,910 --> 01:57:23,920
relying on expertise that you don't have

3483
01:57:27,270 --> 01:57:25,920
to parse data that you can't parse

3484
01:57:28,950 --> 01:57:27,280
because either you don't have the time

3485
01:57:31,510 --> 01:57:28,960
because it's impossible to do it all

3486
01:57:32,390 --> 01:57:31,520
or you don't have the expertise and then

3487
01:57:34,229 --> 01:57:32,400
filtering through

3488
01:57:35,589 --> 01:57:34,239
the lens of the authorities have gotten

3489
01:57:38,229 --> 01:57:35,599
a lot of [\h__\h] wrong

3490
01:57:40,310 --> 01:57:38,239
we've been there's a huge profit motive

3491
01:57:43,189 --> 01:57:40,320
a lot of our regulatory agencies are

3492
01:57:44,550 --> 01:57:43,199
uh are captured by the same entities

3493
01:57:46,709 --> 01:57:44,560
they're supposed to regulate

3494
01:57:48,229 --> 01:57:46,719
witness the alzheimer's drug at a helm

3495
01:57:49,189 --> 01:57:48,239
and that the nonsense there that would

3496
01:57:52,390 --> 01:57:49,199
bankrupt the u.s

3497
01:57:53,030 --> 01:57:52,400
economy uh the the u.s medicare if we

3498
01:57:54,870 --> 01:57:53,040
actually

3499
01:57:56,149 --> 01:57:54,880
approved it and they approved it despite

3500
01:57:56,790 --> 01:57:56,159
two studies showing it really doesn't

3501
01:58:00,870 --> 01:57:56,800
work

3502
01:58:02,629 --> 01:58:00,880
um this this kind of questioning

3503
01:58:05,189 --> 01:58:02,639
what it's what i call on our show the

3504
01:58:07,350 --> 01:58:05,199
alt middle so it's this new like

3505
01:58:09,030 --> 01:58:07,360
stance and it's something that we've

3506
01:58:10,709 --> 01:58:09,040
kind of we've made t-shirts with

3507
01:58:12,790 --> 01:58:10,719
because we're we're idiots so the alt

3508
01:58:16,310 --> 01:58:12,800
middle is a radical position

3509
01:58:17,910 --> 01:58:16,320
that you inhabit that says okay

3510
01:58:19,990 --> 01:58:17,920
forget about politics and all that this

3511
01:58:23,669 --> 01:58:20,000
is about opening your mind

3512
01:58:26,390 --> 01:58:23,679
to different ideas without judging

3513
01:58:27,350 --> 01:58:26,400
people who hold opposing ideas as evil

3514
01:58:29,350 --> 01:58:27,360
so in other words

3515
01:58:31,109 --> 01:58:29,360
hearing everything seeing everything as

3516
01:58:32,070 --> 01:58:31,119
maybe having some truth but being

3517
01:58:34,629 --> 01:58:32,080
partial

3518
01:58:35,510 --> 01:58:34,639
and then assuming good intent and having

3519
01:58:37,669 --> 01:58:35,520
discourse

3520
01:58:39,830 --> 01:58:37,679
well heaven forbid there's nothing in

3521
01:58:42,709 --> 01:58:39,840
social media that rewards that

3522
01:58:44,790 --> 01:58:42,719
with the exception of what i found

3523
01:58:46,629 --> 01:58:44,800
paying subscriber platforms like

3524
01:58:48,790 --> 01:58:46,639
locals facebook youtube where people pay

3525
01:58:49,109 --> 01:58:48,800
five bucks a month to congregate and

3526
01:58:52,070 --> 01:58:49,119
have

3527
01:58:53,910 --> 01:58:52,080
speaking of man that was perfectly timed

3528
01:58:55,189 --> 01:58:53,920
someone just gave ten dollars

3529
01:58:57,990 --> 01:58:55,199
look at that as soon as you said that

3530
01:58:59,830 --> 01:58:58,000
what's it done

3531
01:59:01,669 --> 01:58:59,840
andrew dunbar says i dozed off shortly

3532
01:59:03,589 --> 01:59:01,679
after z dog introduced the guest

3533
01:59:05,270 --> 01:59:03,599
i woke up about 10 minutes ago with no

3534
01:59:05,669 --> 01:59:05,280
clue what was going on and thought yes

3535
01:59:07,189 --> 01:59:05,679
yes

3536
01:59:09,589 --> 01:59:07,199
this is what happens when a society

3537
01:59:10,629 --> 01:59:09,599
legalizes marijuana

3538
01:59:12,629 --> 01:59:10,639
i don't know if you're talking about you

3539
01:59:15,189 --> 01:59:12,639
andrew having smoked a little too much

3540
01:59:16,310 --> 01:59:15,199
or us either way so so back to this

3541
01:59:18,149 --> 01:59:16,320
middle idea

3542
01:59:20,149 --> 01:59:18,159
um and thank you for the support andrew

3543
01:59:22,790 --> 01:59:20,159
the the you can create

3544
01:59:24,629 --> 01:59:22,800
environments you can model environments

3545
01:59:27,189 --> 01:59:24,639
where the pursuit of knowledge

3546
01:59:28,830 --> 01:59:27,199
understanding being civil to each other

3547
01:59:31,510 --> 01:59:28,840
that sort of thing

3548
01:59:33,910 --> 01:59:31,520
actually actually is

3549
01:59:35,669 --> 01:59:33,920
the default so i was recently on the

3550
01:59:37,910 --> 01:59:35,679
rebel wisdom podcast with

3551
01:59:38,709 --> 01:59:37,920
david fuller and we talked about this

3552
01:59:40,629 --> 01:59:38,719
trying to find

3553
01:59:42,070 --> 01:59:40,639
sense one of your big concerns is how do

3554
01:59:42,709 --> 01:59:42,080
you make sense how do you make sense

3555
01:59:44,790 --> 01:59:42,719
when the

3556
01:59:46,390 --> 01:59:44,800
the epistemic commons like our our

3557
01:59:48,149 --> 01:59:46,400
common knowledge sources are gone

3558
01:59:49,589 --> 01:59:48,159
there's no more walter cronkite there's

3559
01:59:51,430 --> 01:59:49,599
no more single source of truth

3560
01:59:53,350 --> 01:59:51,440
it's now a bunch of fragments each with

3561
01:59:55,669 --> 01:59:53,360
their own ideology

3562
01:59:57,589 --> 01:59:55,679
that it's all about signaling like you

3563
01:59:57,990 --> 01:59:57,599
said oh as an intellectual i don't even

3564
02:00:00,070 --> 01:59:58,000
want to be

3565
02:00:02,310 --> 02:00:00,080
perceived as anti-intellectual half the

3566
02:00:05,109 --> 02:00:02,320
[\h__\h] i told you on this thing

3567
02:00:05,750 --> 02:00:05,119
i would never have said three years ago

3568
02:00:07,669 --> 02:00:05,760
because

3569
02:00:10,830 --> 02:00:07,679
i would have been vilified by like a

3570
02:00:12,629 --> 02:00:10,840
david gorsky or someone as full of woo

3571
02:00:14,550 --> 02:00:12,639
anti-scientific exactly how i feel you

3572
02:00:17,030 --> 02:00:14,560
know what i'm talking about so so

3573
02:00:18,870 --> 02:00:17,040
i think this is a fundamental question

3574
02:00:20,310 --> 02:00:18,880
and i do think it's going to emerge i

3575
02:00:22,149 --> 02:00:20,320
think we have to

3576
02:00:23,430 --> 02:00:22,159
those on the leading edge of it which is

3577
02:00:25,189 --> 02:00:23,440
like our audience like

3578
02:00:27,109 --> 02:00:25,199
your audience my audience they think

3579
02:00:28,229 --> 02:00:27,119
like this so let's encourage it

3580
02:00:30,550 --> 02:00:28,239
i've gotten to the point now where i

3581
02:00:32,470 --> 02:00:30,560
never used to like censor comments on my

3582
02:00:34,310 --> 02:00:32,480
on my threads but what i'm finding is

3583
02:00:36,149 --> 02:00:34,320
when people behave in ways that are that

3584
02:00:39,270 --> 02:00:36,159
are anti-alt-middle so they're

3585
02:00:40,790 --> 02:00:39,280
throwing ad hominems they're being very

3586
02:00:42,950 --> 02:00:40,800
overtly politically

3587
02:00:44,149 --> 02:00:42,960
you know idiotic you know it's like oh

3588
02:00:44,709 --> 02:00:44,159
you're a trump supporter because of this

3589
02:00:45,910 --> 02:00:44,719
or you're a

3590
02:00:47,270 --> 02:00:45,920
radical leftist because of this that's

3591
02:00:48,629 --> 02:00:47,280
why i loved your documentary by the way

3592
02:00:50,229 --> 02:00:48,639
because you dive into that [\h__\h]

3593
02:00:53,189 --> 02:00:50,239
in a deep way which was beautiful thank

3594
02:00:55,669 --> 02:00:53,199
you i've started going in now

3595
02:00:56,950 --> 02:00:55,679
and deleting blocking the people who

3596
02:00:57,990 --> 02:00:56,960
make those comments because what they're

3597
02:01:00,229 --> 02:00:58,000
there to do

3598
02:01:01,189 --> 02:01:00,239
is to signal to their tribe they're not

3599
02:01:02,870 --> 02:01:01,199
there to advance

3600
02:01:04,070 --> 02:01:02,880
conversation and then what i noticed is

3601
02:01:04,550 --> 02:01:04,080
so then you get all kinds of complaints

3602
02:01:06,310 --> 02:01:04,560
oh you're

3603
02:01:08,070 --> 02:01:06,320
you're stifling free speech it's not

3604
02:01:10,550 --> 02:01:08,080
free speech this is the community

3605
02:01:11,510 --> 02:01:10,560
i'm trying to com create you can come

3606
02:01:14,070 --> 02:01:11,520
here and we're

3607
02:01:15,430 --> 02:01:14,080
this is our value is alt middle so if

3608
02:01:16,950 --> 02:01:15,440
you behave in that way you can disagree

3609
02:01:18,149 --> 02:01:16,960
with me in fact i want you to

3610
02:01:20,310 --> 02:01:18,159
but i want you to do it in a way that

3611
02:01:22,149 --> 02:01:20,320
assumes i'm not i'm not acting in bad

3612
02:01:25,270 --> 02:01:22,159
faith and you're not acting in bad faith

3613
02:01:26,629 --> 02:01:25,280
and we're coming to a discourse and it

3614
02:01:28,229 --> 02:01:26,639
changes the dynamics then people go to

3615
02:01:29,430 --> 02:01:28,239
the video and they see the comments are

3616
02:01:31,990 --> 02:01:29,440
much more

3617
02:01:34,470 --> 02:01:32,000
constructive even if they disagree then

3618
02:01:34,870 --> 02:01:34,480
you stupid bald pharmaceal i'm gonna

3619
02:01:36,790 --> 02:01:34,880
tell

3620
02:01:38,470 --> 02:01:36,800
you you're paid off by [\h__\h] hilarious

3621
02:01:41,350 --> 02:01:38,480
i wish bro you know

3622
02:01:42,550 --> 02:01:41,360
i have the i'm still on your i'm still

3623
02:01:44,790 --> 02:01:42,560
early zubin then

3624
02:01:46,470 --> 02:01:44,800
because my i'm of the mind i don't

3625
02:01:47,910 --> 02:01:46,480
delete a single comment some people

3626
02:01:48,390 --> 02:01:47,920
think i do but youtube's algorithm

3627
02:01:51,270 --> 02:01:48,400
actually

3628
02:01:52,790 --> 02:01:51,280
filters out quite a few it does yeah and

3629
02:01:54,870 --> 02:01:52,800
people think i'm actively deleting i'm

3630
02:01:57,750 --> 02:01:54,880
not so my disincentive system is

3631
02:01:59,270 --> 02:01:57,760
i read each comment i heart them but if

3632
02:01:59,990 --> 02:01:59,280
they're negative toward the guest i

3633
02:02:01,750 --> 02:02:00,000
don't

3634
02:02:03,750 --> 02:02:01,760
heart them so they can be negative

3635
02:02:04,390 --> 02:02:03,760
toward me they can be negative towards

3636
02:02:06,870 --> 02:02:04,400
the guesses

3637
02:02:07,750 --> 02:02:06,880
guest's theories but not add hominins at

3638
02:02:09,510 --> 02:02:07,760
the guests and then

3639
02:02:12,709 --> 02:02:09,520
that's the only time i don't hurt them

3640
02:02:16,390 --> 02:02:14,950
i actually like what you're doing you

3641
02:02:19,109 --> 02:02:16,400
have to

3642
02:02:19,830 --> 02:02:19,119
do that that's only because the guest is

3643
02:02:22,790 --> 02:02:19,840
like

3644
02:02:24,390 --> 02:02:22,800
the guest this is i they're in my home

3645
02:02:26,550 --> 02:02:24,400
right there so i'm not going to have

3646
02:02:27,510 --> 02:02:26,560
invite them in and have them insulted

3647
02:02:29,750 --> 02:02:27,520
people are saying

3648
02:02:31,030 --> 02:02:29,760
it's fine totally i'm with you so that's

3649
02:02:32,709 --> 02:02:31,040
how i used to be i would only block

3650
02:02:33,910 --> 02:02:32,719
people who were being absolutely vicious

3651
02:02:35,910 --> 02:02:33,920
to my guest because

3652
02:02:37,510 --> 02:02:35,920
it is it's like someone comes a guest in

3653
02:02:39,030 --> 02:02:37,520
my home and someone comes and throws

3654
02:02:40,709 --> 02:02:39,040
feces at them it's like no that's not

3655
02:02:42,790 --> 02:02:40,719
okay they're in my house

3656
02:02:44,070 --> 02:02:42,800
but now i if if they what i what i've

3657
02:02:46,470 --> 02:02:44,080
decided is

3658
02:02:47,270 --> 02:02:46,480
it's an it's if i'm trying to model

3659
02:02:49,430 --> 02:02:47,280
behavior

3660
02:02:51,510 --> 02:02:49,440
of how we should have discourse why

3661
02:02:53,430 --> 02:02:51,520
should my community

3662
02:02:55,270 --> 02:02:53,440
be showing the opposite of that behavior

3663
02:02:56,790 --> 02:02:55,280
now now again that's not for everyone

3664
02:02:58,629 --> 02:02:56,800
and actually david fuller and i

3665
02:03:00,870 --> 02:02:58,639
talked about this on on on a discussion

3666
02:03:02,709 --> 02:03:00,880
on zoom is like what do you do with this

3667
02:03:04,790 --> 02:03:02,719
uh because you don't like a stifle

3668
02:03:06,310 --> 02:03:04,800
conversation but at the same time

3669
02:03:07,430 --> 02:03:06,320
you you almost want to encourage like

3670
02:03:08,870 --> 02:03:07,440
hey i want you to disagree in the

3671
02:03:09,990 --> 02:03:08,880
comments but do it in a way that's civil

3672
02:03:11,589 --> 02:03:10,000
and then the comments fill up with

3673
02:03:14,470 --> 02:03:11,599
people who disagree that's great

3674
02:03:16,229 --> 02:03:14,480
instead of bald pharma clown which hey i

3675
02:03:17,669 --> 02:03:16,239
love that stuff because it juices

3676
02:03:19,990 --> 02:03:17,679
youtube's algorithms

3677
02:03:21,350 --> 02:03:20,000
because when youtube sees controversy it

3678
02:03:23,189 --> 02:03:21,360
serves it out but

3679
02:03:24,629 --> 02:03:23,199
is that good for like building an alt

3680
02:03:27,030 --> 02:03:24,639
middle mindset no

3681
02:03:28,149 --> 02:03:27,040
i don't like snarky comments either or

3682
02:03:30,310 --> 02:03:28,159
people who ask

3683
02:03:31,669 --> 02:03:30,320
questions but they are asking it from an

3684
02:03:34,629 --> 02:03:31,679
antagonistic point of view

3685
02:03:36,709 --> 02:03:34,639
where they just want to well technically

3686
02:03:39,430 --> 02:03:36,719
it's called trolling or make baits

3687
02:03:41,430 --> 02:03:39,440
i have a discord and so there's

3688
02:03:43,350 --> 02:03:41,440
moderation there but not by me because i

3689
02:03:47,030 --> 02:03:43,360
cannot take part in the moderation

3690
02:03:49,270 --> 02:03:47,040
i i don't want to censor because

3691
02:03:50,709 --> 02:03:49,280
i i don't i know you mentioned the term

3692
02:03:53,910 --> 02:03:50,719
good faith and good intentions

3693
02:03:55,030 --> 02:03:53,920
i actually i'm on the opposite end

3694
02:03:57,109 --> 02:03:55,040
i don't care if someone has bad

3695
02:03:57,830 --> 02:03:57,119
intentions the reason is that i have bad

3696
02:03:59,189 --> 02:03:57,840
intentions

3697
02:04:00,390 --> 02:03:59,199
and the more i examine my good

3698
02:04:00,950 --> 02:04:00,400
intentions the more i realize that

3699
02:04:02,790 --> 02:04:00,960
they're bad

3700
02:04:03,910 --> 02:04:02,800
so i don't care if someone has bad

3701
02:04:05,030 --> 02:04:03,920
intentions i also don't care if

3702
02:04:06,790 --> 02:04:05,040
someone's biased

3703
02:04:08,149 --> 02:04:06,800
the reason is that for someone to be

3704
02:04:09,430 --> 02:04:08,159
biased sometimes they can get to an

3705
02:04:11,430 --> 02:04:09,440
argument a place that

3706
02:04:12,550 --> 02:04:11,440
you have to be motivated in order to get

3707
02:04:14,709 --> 02:04:12,560
there and they can

3708
02:04:15,990 --> 02:04:14,719
tell you they can come up with a to a

3709
02:04:17,350 --> 02:04:16,000
truth that you would have

3710
02:04:18,629 --> 02:04:17,360
never found because you're not going to

3711
02:04:19,350 --> 02:04:18,639
expend the energy because you're not

3712
02:04:20,950 --> 02:04:19,360
tied to that

3713
02:04:22,390 --> 02:04:20,960
particular philosophy or whatever it may

3714
02:04:23,830 --> 02:04:22,400
be so i actually

3715
02:04:25,669 --> 02:04:23,840
don't mind speaking to someone who's

3716
02:04:27,910 --> 02:04:25,679
biased because they will have the most

3717
02:04:31,189 --> 02:04:27,920
strengthened

3718
02:04:34,470 --> 02:04:31,199
their position because they're

3719
02:04:37,189 --> 02:04:34,480
so what they're so

3720
02:04:38,470 --> 02:04:37,199
devoted to it oh i agree a thousand

3721
02:04:40,149 --> 02:04:38,480
percent we're all biased

3722
02:04:41,990 --> 02:04:40,159
so the question is you can be biased and

3723
02:04:43,669 --> 02:04:42,000
come and make these really intense

3724
02:04:45,910 --> 02:04:43,679
arguments i want that

3725
02:04:47,830 --> 02:04:45,920
what i don't want is just straight ad

3726
02:04:50,790 --> 02:04:47,840
hominem or like you said the kind of

3727
02:04:51,990 --> 02:04:50,800
trolling grandstanding like you know if

3728
02:04:53,669 --> 02:04:52,000
i have a guest and they're just making

3729
02:04:55,669 --> 02:04:53,679
these comments that are vicious and

3730
02:04:56,870 --> 02:04:55,679
there's just no no i used to just let it

3731
02:04:58,709 --> 02:04:56,880
all go because also i didn't have the

3732
02:05:00,709 --> 02:04:58,719
capacity right so

3733
02:05:02,149 --> 02:05:00,719
it's just but my assistant helps me now

3734
02:05:02,709 --> 02:05:02,159
we have these sort of rules of how to do

3735
02:05:04,149 --> 02:05:02,719
it

3736
02:05:05,830 --> 02:05:04,159
but because facebook got to the point

3737
02:05:08,229 --> 02:05:05,840
where my audience was asking me to

3738
02:05:11,750 --> 02:05:08,239
moderate comments because it was just

3739
02:05:13,350 --> 02:05:11,760
full of just the worst conspiracy stuff

3740
02:05:15,030 --> 02:05:13,360
just discounting anything i said based

3741
02:05:16,229 --> 02:05:15,040
on i'm paid off by some pharma thing

3742
02:05:17,350 --> 02:05:16,239
which by the way that's all public

3743
02:05:19,910 --> 02:05:17,360
information

3744
02:05:21,589 --> 02:05:19,920
i'm a physician the sunshine act forces

3745
02:05:22,069 --> 02:05:21,599
any pharma company to disclose what they

3746
02:05:23,990 --> 02:05:22,079
pay

3747
02:05:26,310 --> 02:05:24,000
unless they're behaving illegally right

3748
02:05:27,589 --> 02:05:26,320
yeah and so so i have to say well yeah i

3749
02:05:29,350 --> 02:05:27,599
did a couple talks

3750
02:05:30,709 --> 02:05:29,360
talking about health 3.0 to

3751
02:05:32,790 --> 02:05:30,719
pharmaceutical m

3752
02:05:33,910 --> 02:05:32,800
a people the the the medical affairs

3753
02:05:35,750 --> 02:05:33,920
people

3754
02:05:37,430 --> 02:05:35,760
who do the research and there it is on

3755
02:05:40,470 --> 02:05:37,440
the site so

3756
02:05:40,870 --> 02:05:40,480
how am i in pfizer's pocket i really

3757
02:05:42,629 --> 02:05:40,880
want

3758
02:05:44,950 --> 02:05:42,639
so the key thing is like you know with

3759
02:05:47,910 --> 02:05:44,960
vaccines it's so hard to know because

3760
02:05:48,950 --> 02:05:47,920
you can get a really smart person online

3761
02:05:50,950 --> 02:05:48,960
who maybe even be a

3762
02:05:52,229 --> 02:05:50,960
virologist like gert vondenbush give

3763
02:05:53,910 --> 02:05:52,239
what sounds like a very compelling

3764
02:05:54,709 --> 02:05:53,920
argument for why we're really harming

3765
02:05:56,470 --> 02:05:54,719
people

3766
02:05:58,069 --> 02:05:56,480
and you and i maybe maybe even talked

3767
02:05:59,510 --> 02:05:58,079
about this uh

3768
02:06:00,709 --> 02:05:59,520
saying this here's here's the reasons i

3769
02:06:02,069 --> 02:06:00,719
think this is a terrible idea we

3770
02:06:03,189 --> 02:06:02,079
shouldn't be doing mass vaccination

3771
02:06:04,310 --> 02:06:03,199
during a pandemic

3772
02:06:06,069 --> 02:06:04,320
here are the reasons why we're going to

3773
02:06:06,390 --> 02:06:06,079
generate mutant strains that are that

3774
02:06:08,310 --> 02:06:06,400
are

3775
02:06:09,669 --> 02:06:08,320
resistant to the vaccines but that the

3776
02:06:11,270 --> 02:06:09,679
immune memory is going to prevent us

3777
02:06:13,350 --> 02:06:11,280
from being able to fix that

3778
02:06:15,270 --> 02:06:13,360
um even with with boosters and so on so

3779
02:06:16,550 --> 02:06:15,280
it sounds very compelling you dig into

3780
02:06:18,149 --> 02:06:16,560
it and you you see

3781
02:06:19,350 --> 02:06:18,159
okay there's some flaws here in the

3782
02:06:20,629 --> 02:06:19,360
thinking actually some of the science

3783
02:06:21,830 --> 02:06:20,639
isn't quite right and oh he's actually

3784
02:06:22,629 --> 02:06:21,840
got his own thing that he's trying to

3785
02:06:24,310 --> 02:06:22,639
develop

3786
02:06:27,030 --> 02:06:24,320
that has to do with natural killer

3787
02:06:30,390 --> 02:06:27,040
killer cells so

3788
02:06:31,030 --> 02:06:30,400
i'm like so on your level not with

3789
02:06:33,350 --> 02:06:31,040
respect to

3790
02:06:34,229 --> 02:06:33,360
disbelieving gert or or discounting him

3791
02:06:37,510 --> 02:06:34,239
in any way but

3792
02:06:39,430 --> 02:06:37,520
with regard to hearing the opposition

3793
02:06:41,030 --> 02:06:39,440
what i want with my channel i wanted to

3794
02:06:43,430 --> 02:06:41,040
get you or someone else

3795
02:06:44,709 --> 02:06:43,440
who's an expert in virology to speak

3796
02:06:48,229 --> 02:06:44,719
with gert or someone else

3797
02:06:49,430 --> 02:06:48,239
and hammer it out but what i don't like

3798
02:06:50,470 --> 02:06:49,440
and going back to the mistrust of

3799
02:06:53,030 --> 02:06:50,480
science is that

3800
02:06:53,990 --> 02:06:53,040
these large agencies and this is not a

3801
02:06:55,750 --> 02:06:54,000
right issue

3802
02:06:57,669 --> 02:06:55,760
it's not conservative in fact noam

3803
02:06:57,990 --> 02:06:57,679
chomsky talked about this in the 70s or

3804
02:07:01,030 --> 02:06:58,000
80s

3805
02:07:04,149 --> 02:07:01,040
with manufacturing consent they

3806
02:07:06,870 --> 02:07:04,159
s the fact that i may be demonetized

3807
02:07:08,790 --> 02:07:06,880
for talking about the potential dangers

3808
02:07:12,310 --> 02:07:08,800
of vaccines or having a debate

3809
02:07:14,390 --> 02:07:12,320
on it i that's why where my eyebrows

3810
02:07:17,430 --> 02:07:14,400
raised why are you

3811
02:07:19,430 --> 02:07:17,440
why are you squelching the opposition

3812
02:07:20,629 --> 02:07:19,440
they've made everything worse right by

3813
02:07:22,390 --> 02:07:20,639
doing that that's insane

3814
02:07:25,189 --> 02:07:22,400
you have tech oligopolies making

3815
02:07:26,790 --> 02:07:25,199
decisions on who can speak that's insane

3816
02:07:28,390 --> 02:07:26,800
what we should do now here's the problem

3817
02:07:29,270 --> 02:07:28,400
though so how do you make sense in a

3818
02:07:30,870 --> 02:07:29,280
world like this

3819
02:07:33,430 --> 02:07:30,880
and this is something david and i talked

3820
02:07:35,270 --> 02:07:33,440
about david fuller

3821
02:07:36,629 --> 02:07:35,280
because even my argument to you like

3822
02:07:38,390 --> 02:07:36,639
well i don't want to do a thing with

3823
02:07:39,830 --> 02:07:38,400
gert vondenbush because

3824
02:07:41,510 --> 02:07:39,840
first of all i'm not a virologist we

3825
02:07:43,750 --> 02:07:41,520
need a virologist second of all there's

3826
02:07:45,669 --> 02:07:43,760
this idea of false equivalence where by

3827
02:07:47,830 --> 02:07:45,679
highlighting a platform that you firmly

3828
02:07:49,910 --> 02:07:47,840
think is wrong and harmful potentially

3829
02:07:51,189 --> 02:07:49,920
you're giving it more credence now i

3830
02:07:53,510 --> 02:07:51,199
think that argument

3831
02:07:54,390 --> 02:07:53,520
is no longer valid in this world it's no

3832
02:07:56,229 --> 02:07:54,400
longer valid because

3833
02:07:58,550 --> 02:07:56,239
they have a platform it's called youtube

3834
02:08:00,629 --> 02:07:58,560
they can go and say whatever they like

3835
02:08:02,310 --> 02:08:00,639
your job as a scientist or whatever is

3836
02:08:04,149 --> 02:08:02,320
to try to promote what you think is

3837
02:08:04,550 --> 02:08:04,159
correct and the discourse that leads to

3838
02:08:07,270 --> 02:08:04,560
that

3839
02:08:08,950 --> 02:08:07,280
so we ought to have virologists going

3840
02:08:09,189 --> 02:08:08,960
and talking to the bigger people that

3841
02:08:12,390 --> 02:08:09,199
are

3842
02:08:15,430 --> 02:08:12,400
know the malones and von

3843
02:08:17,510 --> 02:08:15,440
vandenbush and um you know uh uh

3844
02:08:19,910 --> 02:08:17,520
pierre cory on ivermectin and these kind

3845
02:08:21,669 --> 02:08:19,920
of things go and have the conversation

3846
02:08:23,189 --> 02:08:21,679
you know and and i would honestly i

3847
02:08:24,470 --> 02:08:23,199
would do it i don't have a problem with

3848
02:08:26,950 --> 02:08:24,480
it the thing is

3849
02:08:27,990 --> 02:08:26,960
i actually i don't feel worthy to do it

3850
02:08:30,149 --> 02:08:28,000
like i i i

3851
02:08:31,830 --> 02:08:30,159
know i completely understand i i'm a

3852
02:08:32,709 --> 02:08:31,840
communicator i need somebody who studies

3853
02:08:34,550 --> 02:08:32,719
this for a living

3854
02:08:35,669 --> 02:08:34,560
to go and say okay let's go depth by in

3855
02:08:37,750 --> 02:08:35,679
depth by that because i'll be

3856
02:08:38,709 --> 02:08:37,760
manipulated like a pierre cory would

3857
02:08:40,069 --> 02:08:38,719
have no problem

3858
02:08:41,990 --> 02:08:40,079
actually not him because i think i could

3859
02:08:43,430 --> 02:08:42,000
i could do it with him i just

3860
02:08:45,830 --> 02:08:43,440
i've talked about this publicly before

3861
02:08:47,350 --> 02:08:45,840
about ivermectin and why i i think

3862
02:08:49,189 --> 02:08:47,360
we need the trials before we can say

3863
02:08:49,669 --> 02:08:49,199
anything about it but that all being

3864
02:08:51,350 --> 02:08:49,679
said

3865
02:08:53,030 --> 02:08:51,360
you need somebody who can really dig in

3866
02:08:54,310 --> 02:08:53,040
now the problem is the big virologists

3867
02:08:55,430 --> 02:08:54,320
are biased in their own way

3868
02:08:57,270 --> 02:08:55,440
so they're like you know part of the

3869
02:08:59,270 --> 02:08:57,280
mainstream scientific community they see

3870
02:09:00,950 --> 02:08:59,280
this as just an annoyance or a nuisance

3871
02:09:02,629 --> 02:09:00,960
they don't realize that these these

3872
02:09:04,069 --> 02:09:02,639
folks are influencing a lot of people to

3873
02:09:05,430 --> 02:09:04,079
not get vaccinated so if you think the

3874
02:09:07,030 --> 02:09:05,440
vaccines are safe and effective

3875
02:09:08,870 --> 02:09:07,040
then it's kind of on you to go and

3876
02:09:10,149 --> 02:09:08,880
communicate it now paul offit is a big

3877
02:09:11,669 --> 02:09:10,159
vaccine guy

3878
02:09:13,589 --> 02:09:11,679
mainstream guy come on my show a few

3879
02:09:14,790 --> 02:09:13,599
times very rational guy but he is biased

3880
02:09:16,550 --> 02:09:14,800
towards vaccines always says what he

3881
02:09:17,270 --> 02:09:16,560
does he's a pediatrician and he's

3882
02:09:20,390 --> 02:09:17,280
invented the

3883
02:09:21,109 --> 02:09:20,400
you know saved countless lives around

3884
02:09:24,629 --> 02:09:21,119
the world but

3885
02:09:26,790 --> 02:09:24,639
he does see it through that lens um

3886
02:09:28,629 --> 02:09:26,800
he's written a book on why scientists

3887
02:09:30,870 --> 02:09:28,639
are terrible communicators

3888
02:09:31,669 --> 02:09:30,880
so what can happen is a not very good

3889
02:09:33,270 --> 02:09:31,679
scientist

3890
02:09:35,750 --> 02:09:33,280
who has enough of the lingo who's a good

3891
02:09:37,830 --> 02:09:35,760
communicator can convince the world of

3892
02:09:39,750 --> 02:09:37,840
something that's really a fringe idea

3893
02:09:41,270 --> 02:09:39,760
with equal weight or bigger weight than

3894
02:09:42,229 --> 02:09:41,280
the mainstream that are terrible

3895
02:09:43,350 --> 02:09:42,239
communicators

3896
02:09:44,629 --> 02:09:43,360
because they're in the lab all day and

3897
02:09:46,790 --> 02:09:44,639
they're a little bit on the spectrum and

3898
02:09:48,629 --> 02:09:46,800
they're you know they're who they are

3899
02:09:50,310 --> 02:09:48,639
and you know paul in his book actually

3900
02:09:51,830 --> 02:09:50,320
wrote a lot of stories about how he

3901
02:09:53,510 --> 02:09:51,840
would go on these press things and just

3902
02:09:55,350 --> 02:09:53,520
make a fool of himself

3903
02:09:56,870 --> 02:09:55,360
because he just first of all i think

3904
02:09:58,310 --> 02:09:56,880
scientists overestimate it's like part

3905
02:10:00,870 --> 02:09:58,320
of the dunning-kruger

3906
02:10:02,149 --> 02:10:00,880
kind of uh curve where it's not that you

3907
02:10:03,270 --> 02:10:02,159
you know so little that you don't know

3908
02:10:05,430 --> 02:10:03,280
what you don't know that's like

3909
02:10:06,709 --> 02:10:05,440
very low understanding you know a lot

3910
02:10:09,189 --> 02:10:06,719
but then the the

3911
02:10:09,750 --> 02:10:09,199
the logic the um cognitive uh error

3912
02:10:11,750 --> 02:10:09,760
there is

3913
02:10:13,589 --> 02:10:11,760
you assume everyone else knows at least

3914
02:10:15,350 --> 02:10:13,599
as as much as you do

3915
02:10:17,189 --> 02:10:15,360
and you operate from that assumption and

3916
02:10:17,910 --> 02:10:17,199
it comes off either as condescending or

3917
02:10:20,149 --> 02:10:17,920
just

3918
02:10:21,830 --> 02:10:20,159
blind to the fact that people need basic

3919
02:10:24,709 --> 02:10:21,840
education on this stuff

3920
02:10:26,310 --> 02:10:24,719
so it's very complicated and i i

3921
02:10:27,350 --> 02:10:26,320
struggle with my own role in this

3922
02:10:29,830 --> 02:10:27,360
because

3923
02:10:31,750 --> 02:10:29,840
you know when i do a show i'm looking

3924
02:10:34,790 --> 02:10:31,760
you can see i've got nice equipment

3925
02:10:37,510 --> 02:10:34,800
it's all very polished you know so all

3926
02:10:42,149 --> 02:10:39,589
you look great brother you know yours is

3927
02:10:44,950 --> 02:10:42,159
authentic only guys come on

3928
02:10:46,550 --> 02:10:44,960
dude dude but the thing is it's so

3929
02:10:48,629 --> 02:10:46,560
polished you shouldn't trust me

3930
02:10:49,990 --> 02:10:48,639
you may instinctively not trust me like

3931
02:10:51,510 --> 02:10:50,000
i'm looking right at the camera i'm

3932
02:10:53,030 --> 02:10:51,520
making eye contact with the audience i'm

3933
02:10:55,750 --> 02:10:53,040
speaking without a script

3934
02:10:56,149 --> 02:10:55,760
that's a little concerning like to to

3935
02:10:59,510 --> 02:10:56,159
people

3936
02:11:01,589 --> 02:10:59,520
because it doesn't

3937
02:11:02,870 --> 02:11:01,599
have the you know like if i were just

3938
02:11:04,470 --> 02:11:02,880
with my phone i'm like guys let me just

3939
02:11:05,030 --> 02:11:04,480
tell you what's going on and i do that

3940
02:11:07,270 --> 02:11:05,040
too

3941
02:11:08,950 --> 02:11:07,280
i usually do those in lives those will

3942
02:11:12,310 --> 02:11:08,960
often engage a lot more

3943
02:11:13,669 --> 02:11:12,320
because people's trust mechanism fires

3944
02:11:15,270 --> 02:11:13,679
when they feel like they're on a face

3945
02:11:16,310 --> 02:11:15,280
time with someone instead of this very

3946
02:11:18,310 --> 02:11:16,320
produced thing so

3947
02:11:20,229 --> 02:11:18,320
i struggle with that in terms of my own

3948
02:11:21,350 --> 02:11:20,239
show it's just i'm a nerd and i like

3949
02:11:23,270 --> 02:11:21,360
[\h__\h] to look good

3950
02:11:26,950 --> 02:11:23,280
and i look like [\h__\h] at baseline so

3951
02:11:30,310 --> 02:11:28,390
uh by the way i got to say this about

3952
02:11:32,629 --> 02:11:30,320
your um your documentary

3953
02:11:35,510 --> 02:11:32,639
uh better or better left unsaid your

3954
02:11:38,149 --> 02:11:35,520
suit that you wore in that

3955
02:11:39,030 --> 02:11:38,159
it was tailored like oh wow thank you it

3956
02:11:41,350 --> 02:11:39,040
was i

3957
02:11:43,510 --> 02:11:41,360
was guess what it was not tailored it

3958
02:11:46,069 --> 02:11:43,520
was off the rack

3959
02:11:47,270 --> 02:11:46,079
dude he had something like a gl that was

3960
02:11:49,350 --> 02:11:47,280
a coincidence

3961
02:11:50,310 --> 02:11:49,360
i mean i'm not gay but if i were i'd be

3962
02:11:54,069 --> 02:11:50,320
like

3963
02:11:57,350 --> 02:11:55,510
is it all right i'm going to quickly

3964
02:11:59,189 --> 02:11:57,360
mute turn off my mic sorry

3965
02:12:00,709 --> 02:11:59,199
mute turn off this for about 10 seconds

3966
02:12:01,750 --> 02:12:00,719
to tell my wife that we're just wrapping

3967
02:12:03,109 --> 02:12:01,760
up so that she knows

3968
02:12:04,229 --> 02:12:03,119
absolutely absolutely want to respect

3969
02:12:05,589 --> 02:12:04,239
your time too i'll read some comments

3970
02:12:09,109 --> 02:12:05,599
while you're doing that

3971
02:12:11,270 --> 02:12:09,119
um tim davis says i wake up

3972
02:12:12,870 --> 02:12:11,280
almost every night at 3 a.m did an

3973
02:12:14,950 --> 02:12:12,880
experiment with glucose monitor noticed

3974
02:12:16,709 --> 02:12:14,960
my glucose levels were clashing

3975
02:12:18,069 --> 02:12:16,719
crashing it at the every time every

3976
02:12:20,069 --> 02:12:18,079
night diet

3977
02:12:21,910 --> 02:12:20,079
at the right time resolved it now it's

3978
02:12:23,030 --> 02:12:21,920
only occasional so tim was talking about

3979
02:12:23,990 --> 02:12:23,040
like his waking up in the

3980
02:12:26,950 --> 02:12:24,000
night of anxiety was doing a

3981
02:12:28,629 --> 02:12:26,960
physiological cause another

3982
02:12:30,229 --> 02:12:28,639
sorry is it okay if i tell you a bit

3983
02:12:32,790 --> 02:12:30,239
about my sleep quickly yeah

3984
02:12:36,790 --> 02:12:32,800
please so i've been fasting for the past

3985
02:12:38,870 --> 02:12:36,800
some 74 hours or so into a fast

3986
02:12:41,109 --> 02:12:38,880
when i fast i tend to not be able to

3987
02:12:41,910 --> 02:12:41,119
sleep i also find that my heart races

3988
02:12:45,109 --> 02:12:41,920
faster

3989
02:12:46,950 --> 02:12:45,119
even if i even if i'm not thinking of

3990
02:12:48,229 --> 02:12:46,960
an anxious thought at all my heart just

3991
02:12:49,589 --> 02:12:48,239
seems to beat

3992
02:12:51,669 --> 02:12:49,599
i don't know if that's correlated with

3993
02:12:53,750 --> 02:12:51,679
the fasting or if that's

3994
02:12:54,870 --> 02:12:53,760
is it is it a pure water fast that

3995
02:12:57,189 --> 02:12:54,880
you're doing well sometimes

3996
02:12:58,709 --> 02:12:57,199
yeah i have coffee you have coffee okay

3997
02:13:00,550 --> 02:12:58,719
but you're not getting electrolytes

3998
02:13:03,589 --> 02:13:00,560
you're not getting anything else

3999
02:13:05,189 --> 02:13:03,599
okay so to some extent

4000
02:13:06,870 --> 02:13:05,199
the sleep deprivation may just simply be

4001
02:13:09,270 --> 02:13:06,880
a hormonal hunger thing

4002
02:13:11,109 --> 02:13:09,280
it could also be that the sense of

4003
02:13:12,069 --> 02:13:11,119
palpitations the heart kind of racing

4004
02:13:13,189 --> 02:13:12,079
that you have

4005
02:13:15,109 --> 02:13:13,199
it can sometimes be because your

4006
02:13:15,669 --> 02:13:15,119
potassium is a little out of whack

4007
02:13:17,109 --> 02:13:15,679
because

4008
02:13:19,669 --> 02:13:17,119
just finishing up with iterative like a

4009
02:13:20,790 --> 02:13:19,679
zero gatorade well gato yeah gatorade

4010
02:13:22,470 --> 02:13:20,800
without any um

4011
02:13:24,310 --> 02:13:22,480
and again i'm not an expert in water

4012
02:13:25,430 --> 02:13:24,320
fasting so someone like peter attia

4013
02:13:26,629 --> 02:13:25,440
who's a friend of mine would be a good

4014
02:13:30,229 --> 02:13:26,639
person to talk to

4015
02:13:31,589 --> 02:13:30,239
um the the idea that

4016
02:13:33,270 --> 02:13:31,599
there's a lot of things in you know in a

4017
02:13:35,189 --> 02:13:33,280
72 hour let me see so

4018
02:13:36,629 --> 02:13:35,199
you know three days of that you know

4019
02:13:38,709 --> 02:13:36,639
human body is pretty resilient you can

4020
02:13:40,790 --> 02:13:38,719
do that but there will be these

4021
02:13:42,390 --> 02:13:40,800
absolutely about to eat man after this i

4022
02:13:44,629 --> 02:13:42,400
told you i'm gonna go into bliss

4023
02:13:46,149 --> 02:13:44,639
i i'm gonna eat every i know that i

4024
02:13:46,870 --> 02:13:46,159
shouldn't do that after long fast but

4025
02:13:48,470 --> 02:13:46,880
that's how i

4026
02:13:49,910 --> 02:13:48,480
operate dude that's how that's how we

4027
02:13:51,669 --> 02:13:49,920
evolved it's like never happens

4028
02:13:53,669 --> 02:13:51,679
i'm wondering is this good for me or is

4029
02:13:55,350 --> 02:13:53,679
it bad for me going through it

4030
02:13:56,709 --> 02:13:55,360
somewhat like intermittent fasting like

4031
02:14:00,229 --> 02:13:56,719
drastic fast overeat

4032
02:14:01,830 --> 02:14:00,239
drastic fast i imagine that sorry

4033
02:14:03,669 --> 02:14:01,840
no go go ahead go ahead i imagine that

4034
02:14:05,750 --> 02:14:03,679
that's plenty of what our ancestors did

4035
02:14:07,109 --> 02:14:05,760
though not all the time but for plenty

4036
02:14:09,669 --> 02:14:07,119
of the time because you would kill

4037
02:14:10,790 --> 02:14:09,679
then so gorge assume assuming you don't

4038
02:14:12,470 --> 02:14:10,800
have an eating disorder

4039
02:14:15,270 --> 02:14:12,480
that is going to be exacerbated by this

4040
02:14:17,430 --> 02:14:15,280
right which is always a caveat

4041
02:14:19,270 --> 02:14:17,440
fasting is like it can be wonderful for

4042
02:14:20,310 --> 02:14:19,280
people i think it's not anti-physiologic

4043
02:14:23,030 --> 02:14:20,320
at all i think there's

4044
02:14:24,069 --> 02:14:23,040
plenty of at least reasonable level

4045
02:14:26,310 --> 02:14:24,079
evidence that

4046
02:14:27,189 --> 02:14:26,320
it's not harmful and it may be helpful

4047
02:14:29,830 --> 02:14:27,199
for some people

4048
02:14:31,430 --> 02:14:29,840
i myself do one meal a day as my sort of

4049
02:14:33,350 --> 02:14:31,440
feeding window thing and that's the only

4050
02:14:35,350 --> 02:14:33,360
way at 48 i keep from becoming morbidly

4051
02:14:38,550 --> 02:14:35,360
obese because i love food so much

4052
02:14:41,270 --> 02:14:38,560
i am the exact same way one meal a day

4053
02:14:42,870 --> 02:14:41,280
almost every single day because i cannot

4054
02:14:46,709 --> 02:14:42,880
help my i am avaricious

4055
02:14:49,669 --> 02:14:48,310
you're using some big words that i don't

4056
02:14:50,390 --> 02:14:49,679
understand and i'm gonna take that as a

4057
02:14:52,550 --> 02:14:50,400
personal

4058
02:14:53,430 --> 02:14:52,560
insult all right but i will say this i'm

4059
02:14:56,709 --> 02:14:53,440
a fat ass

4060
02:14:58,069 --> 02:14:56,719
if left to my own devices i will you're

4061
02:14:59,589 --> 02:14:58,079
exactly and by the way when in your in

4062
02:15:03,350 --> 02:14:59,599
your in your documentary when you showed

4063
02:15:08,790 --> 02:15:06,629
my parents are parsy from pune india

4064
02:15:09,830 --> 02:15:08,800
and my mom same thing just i just i

4065
02:15:12,950 --> 02:15:09,840
could eat that all day

4066
02:15:14,870 --> 02:15:12,960
and be like 500 pounds um

4067
02:15:16,390 --> 02:15:14,880
it it's so so your sleep and your

4068
02:15:19,189 --> 02:15:16,400
fasting they do

4069
02:15:21,350 --> 02:15:19,199
interact and some of it is the fact how

4070
02:15:24,709 --> 02:15:21,360
often do you do the fasts

4071
02:15:27,189 --> 02:15:24,719
once a week i'll fast for 48 hours

4072
02:15:28,709 --> 02:15:27,199
this one is 72 hours but it's once a

4073
02:15:30,870 --> 02:15:28,719
week about 48 hours

4074
02:15:32,629 --> 02:15:30,880
and then how are you one meal a day so

4075
02:15:34,229 --> 02:15:32,639
so so anyone who's like oh you fast and

4076
02:15:35,350 --> 02:15:34,239
your brain gets foggy i mean you started

4077
02:15:36,069 --> 02:15:35,360
out foggy because you were tired and

4078
02:15:38,470 --> 02:15:36,079
you've done a bunch of

4079
02:15:39,990 --> 02:15:38,480
podcasts but then man once you woke up

4080
02:15:42,229 --> 02:15:40,000
it was like oh [\h__\h]

4081
02:15:44,390 --> 02:15:42,239
so whatever ketones you're burning now

4082
02:15:45,270 --> 02:15:44,400
are you energizing me man you energize

4083
02:15:46,870 --> 02:15:45,280
me you take

4084
02:15:48,629 --> 02:15:46,880
all the credit belongs to you trust me

4085
02:15:50,390 --> 02:15:48,639
because i've been speaking to a couple

4086
02:15:53,430 --> 02:15:50,400
people today and you should have seen me

4087
02:15:55,910 --> 02:15:53,440
just in a torpor

4088
02:15:56,870 --> 02:15:55,920
with dude sometimes mental and spiritual

4089
02:15:59,669 --> 02:15:56,880
apathy

4090
02:16:01,430 --> 02:15:59,679
sometimes when i have an in-person guest

4091
02:16:04,470 --> 02:16:01,440
and i'm not feeling it

4092
02:16:05,750 --> 02:16:04,480
it's like i'm in a different world like

4093
02:16:06,069 --> 02:16:05,760
my mind is somewhere else and i'm like

4094
02:16:08,950 --> 02:16:06,079
uh

4095
02:16:10,069 --> 02:16:08,960
okay back to this happens early but it's

4096
02:16:11,510 --> 02:16:10,079
a really horrible

4097
02:16:13,270 --> 02:16:11,520
because it feels terrible well you've

4098
02:16:15,189 --> 02:16:13,280
taken your time out for me

4099
02:16:17,030 --> 02:16:15,199
and then it's as if i'm not giving you

4100
02:16:19,589 --> 02:16:17,040
your best i also

4101
02:16:20,950 --> 02:16:19,599
well i also wonder see this is what i

4102
02:16:21,510 --> 02:16:20,960
mean when i say constantly question

4103
02:16:23,990 --> 02:16:21,520
myself

4104
02:16:25,430 --> 02:16:24,000
because how much of my fasting is also

4105
02:16:27,830 --> 02:16:25,440
self-sabotage so one

4106
02:16:29,109 --> 02:16:27,840
because i'm vain and i want to keep thin

4107
02:16:31,270 --> 02:16:29,119
two because i'm

4108
02:16:32,709 --> 02:16:31,280
filled with gulosity and i want to eat

4109
02:16:35,270 --> 02:16:32,719
three because

4110
02:16:37,910 --> 02:16:35,280
it's okay that i fail because i'm

4111
02:16:40,469 --> 02:16:37,920
fasting and so therefore

4112
02:16:41,030 --> 02:16:40,479
therefore if i'm not up to par i have an

4113
02:16:43,830 --> 02:16:41,040
excuse

4114
02:16:45,669 --> 02:16:43,840
so that's not consciously there but if i

4115
02:16:46,549 --> 02:16:45,679
examine myself i can imagine that that

4116
02:16:49,990 --> 02:16:46,559
lurks just

4117
02:16:51,830 --> 02:16:50,000
thinly veiled underneath brother

4118
02:16:53,910 --> 02:16:51,840
it's like we're cut from the same cloth

4119
02:16:55,429 --> 02:16:53,920
man so the the reason i never prep for

4120
02:16:57,110 --> 02:16:55,439
interviews very much

4121
02:16:58,950 --> 02:16:57,120
is partially so i have plausible

4122
02:17:01,270 --> 02:16:58,960
deniability when it sucks

4123
02:17:02,070 --> 02:17:01,280
i'm like well you know i just winged it

4124
02:17:05,270 --> 02:17:02,080
i you know

4125
02:17:06,150 --> 02:17:05,280
i i didn't really do anything so yeah i

4126
02:17:07,429 --> 02:17:06,160
mean next time if i

4127
02:17:10,150 --> 02:17:07,439
if i did something it would have kicked

4128
02:17:11,429 --> 02:17:10,160
ass the mind and a lot of it's

4129
02:17:13,270 --> 02:17:11,439
unconscious you can bring it into

4130
02:17:15,030 --> 02:17:13,280
consciousness you shine a light on it

4131
02:17:16,549 --> 02:17:15,040
but you know i got to say and now the

4132
02:17:17,349 --> 02:17:16,559
only thing i'd say is maybe research a

4133
02:17:19,270 --> 02:17:17,359
little bit on

4134
02:17:20,469 --> 02:17:19,280
your electrolyte situation is there

4135
02:17:21,830 --> 02:17:20,479
something you can do within that fast

4136
02:17:23,910 --> 02:17:21,840
i'll try that

4137
02:17:25,750 --> 02:17:23,920
yeah you know especially potassium and

4138
02:17:28,549 --> 02:17:25,760
sodium are often

4139
02:17:28,870 --> 02:17:28,559
wasted early on in a fast as you switch

4140
02:17:31,589 --> 02:17:28,880
from

4141
02:17:32,549 --> 02:17:31,599
burning carbs to burning fat and going

4142
02:17:34,870 --> 02:17:32,559
to ketosis

4143
02:17:36,629 --> 02:17:34,880
there's a diuretic effect where you do

4144
02:17:38,230 --> 02:17:36,639
lose a lot of that so a lot of times in

4145
02:17:41,509 --> 02:17:38,240
people talk about the keto flu when

4146
02:17:42,950 --> 02:17:41,519
you're first going into ketosis

4147
02:17:46,070 --> 02:17:42,960
this idea that people feel really kind

4148
02:17:48,309 --> 02:17:46,080
of crummy may maybe partially due to

4149
02:17:49,429 --> 02:17:48,319
that aspect of it like atiya and others

4150
02:17:52,070 --> 02:17:49,439
have recommended

4151
02:17:52,709 --> 02:17:52,080
broths with high sodium and potassium

4152
02:17:54,950 --> 02:17:52,719
you can take

4153
02:17:56,230 --> 02:17:54,960
you know potassium supplements i don't

4154
02:17:57,429 --> 02:17:56,240
know if that's necessary for this

4155
02:17:58,870 --> 02:17:57,439
you'd really have to kind of dig into it

4156
02:17:59,750 --> 02:17:58,880
a bit because i'm not an expert in it

4157
02:18:02,230 --> 02:17:59,760
but those are just stuff

4158
02:18:06,549 --> 02:18:02,240
off the top of my head and then man i'm

4159
02:18:10,469 --> 02:18:08,469
eating after a fast is like oh it's

4160
02:18:13,190 --> 02:18:10,479
orgasmic yeah

4161
02:18:13,669 --> 02:18:13,200
yeah someone mentioned thc i'm wondering

4162
02:18:15,589 --> 02:18:13,679
about

4163
02:18:18,150 --> 02:18:15,599
dabbling in some of that that also helps

4164
02:18:22,070 --> 02:18:18,160
me sleep thc helps tremendously

4165
02:18:23,910 --> 02:18:22,080
but apparently thc while it reduces the

4166
02:18:26,070 --> 02:18:23,920
sleep lag like the time it takes to get

4167
02:18:27,270 --> 02:18:26,080
to sleep it disrupts your sleep cycle

4168
02:18:29,349 --> 02:18:27,280
but cbd

4169
02:18:31,669 --> 02:18:29,359
doesn't contribute to sleep lag but it

4170
02:18:33,750 --> 02:18:31,679
helps your sleep cycle

4171
02:18:36,070 --> 02:18:33,760
yeah that i've i've heard exactly that

4172
02:18:37,669 --> 02:18:36,080
and i've experienced that with thc that

4173
02:18:39,110 --> 02:18:37,679
you go to sleep fine and then you wake

4174
02:18:40,950 --> 02:18:39,120
up with this

4175
02:18:42,469 --> 02:18:40,960
you know kind of dysphoric sense in the

4176
02:18:43,270 --> 02:18:42,479
middle of the night a few times at least

4177
02:18:46,629 --> 02:18:43,280
i do

4178
02:18:50,830 --> 02:18:46,639
i know for me for me i wake up in

4179
02:18:53,110 --> 02:18:50,840
a bed of mirthful

4180
02:18:56,309 --> 02:18:53,120
overjoyed the

4181
02:18:58,790 --> 02:18:56,319
jubilance like oh my gosh this feels so

4182
02:18:59,429 --> 02:18:58,800
great because i wake up so rested and

4183
02:19:00,629 --> 02:18:59,439
even

4184
02:19:02,230 --> 02:19:00,639
in the middle of the night if i wake up

4185
02:19:03,509 --> 02:19:02,240
i'm like these are the best sheets they

4186
02:19:07,669 --> 02:19:03,519
feel like they've been

4187
02:19:09,750 --> 02:19:07,679
just washed and it's the queen's sheets

4188
02:19:11,270 --> 02:19:09,760
isn't it fascinating how our perception

4189
02:19:13,910 --> 02:19:11,280
is so malleable

4190
02:19:15,910 --> 02:19:13,920
you know hey one thing kind of just to

4191
02:19:17,030 --> 02:19:15,920
tie it and i i i'm by the way just stop

4192
02:19:18,230 --> 02:19:17,040
me whenever you need to go because i

4193
02:19:19,030 --> 02:19:18,240
know you keep going i'm enjoying this

4194
02:19:20,790 --> 02:19:19,040
man i just wanted

4195
02:19:22,469 --> 02:19:20,800
let me tell my wife once more i just

4196
02:19:23,589 --> 02:19:22,479
want her to know and let me get up don't

4197
02:19:26,709 --> 02:19:23,599
get me in trouble bro

4198
02:19:31,030 --> 02:19:28,629
you know let me read a comment real

4199
02:19:32,790 --> 02:19:31,040
quick while we're doing this um

4200
02:19:34,469 --> 02:19:32,800
i wake up with the munchies says jamie

4201
02:19:35,990 --> 02:19:34,479
vance there it is lizette paris is a

4202
02:19:36,790 --> 02:19:36,000
supporter says oh i feel like indian

4203
02:19:38,870 --> 02:19:36,800
food right now

4204
02:19:40,469 --> 02:19:38,880
right so do i we're getting korean food

4205
02:19:41,910 --> 02:19:40,479
tonight after the show i'm going with my

4206
02:19:43,990 --> 02:19:41,920
family we're going to go to

4207
02:19:46,230 --> 02:19:44,000
foster city and get some dope korean

4208
02:19:48,309 --> 02:19:46,240
food on facebook samantha

4209
02:19:49,429 --> 02:19:48,319
espionage says i'm very open-minded and

4210
02:19:50,950 --> 02:19:49,439
will listen to the beliefs of others

4211
02:19:53,190 --> 02:19:50,960
even if they contradict my own

4212
02:19:54,870 --> 02:19:53,200
i take both into consideration and if

4213
02:19:55,670 --> 02:19:54,880
the opposing belief seems more logical

4214
02:19:57,190 --> 02:19:55,680
than my own

4215
02:19:58,309 --> 02:19:57,200
then i'm not afraid to allow myself to

4216
02:19:59,750 --> 02:19:58,319
adopt them so that's what you

4217
02:20:01,030 --> 02:19:59,760
consciously think samantha that you're

4218
02:20:02,630 --> 02:20:01,040
already ahead of most people

4219
02:20:04,070 --> 02:20:02,640
i would advise you to even look

4220
02:20:05,830 --> 02:20:04,080
unconsciously and go

4221
02:20:07,030 --> 02:20:05,840
what part of me is resisting this what

4222
02:20:08,070 --> 02:20:07,040
part of me is triggered by this what

4223
02:20:10,870 --> 02:20:08,080
part of me won't

4224
02:20:12,070 --> 02:20:10,880
um let go or the malleability of my own

4225
02:20:13,510 --> 02:20:12,080
beliefs and it may be that you're

4226
02:20:15,590 --> 02:20:13,520
you've already done that right which is

4227
02:20:17,590 --> 02:20:15,600
wonderful but many of us haven't

4228
02:20:19,349 --> 02:20:17,600
you know my unconscious is very

4229
02:20:22,469 --> 02:20:19,359
resistant to a lot of things

4230
02:20:23,750 --> 02:20:22,479
and i have to bring that resistance into

4231
02:20:25,030 --> 02:20:23,760
conscious awareness you know shine a

4232
02:20:26,469 --> 02:20:25,040
light on it you know they say like

4233
02:20:27,590 --> 02:20:26,479
sunlight's the best disinfectant it's

4234
02:20:30,469 --> 02:20:27,600
the same with consciousness

4235
02:20:31,190 --> 02:20:30,479
making something that's automatic

4236
02:20:33,830 --> 02:20:31,200
something that's

4237
02:20:35,030 --> 02:20:33,840
now aware is is a huge uh asset so what

4238
02:20:36,150 --> 02:20:35,040
were we talking about brother we were

4239
02:20:39,830 --> 02:20:36,160
talking about um

4240
02:20:41,830 --> 02:20:39,840
perception so

4241
02:20:43,270 --> 02:20:41,840
the one interesting insight i've had

4242
02:20:46,870 --> 02:20:43,280
that may not be an insight so

4243
02:20:48,230 --> 02:20:46,880
i rarely ever uh uh use thc anymore when

4244
02:20:49,270 --> 02:20:48,240
i was younger it was a different subject

4245
02:20:51,110 --> 02:20:49,280
but

4246
02:20:52,710 --> 02:20:51,120
now you know occasionally i'll do it as

4247
02:20:54,230 --> 02:20:52,720
an experiment into

4248
02:20:56,630 --> 02:20:54,240
into consciousness like what what does

4249
02:20:58,469 --> 02:20:56,640
this do yeah i'm not a fan of recreation

4250
02:21:00,469 --> 02:20:58,479
drug use recreational drug use

4251
02:21:01,750 --> 02:21:00,479
it has to be for a particular purpose

4252
02:21:03,349 --> 02:21:01,760
like insight into the

4253
02:21:05,190 --> 02:21:03,359
into reality or to help you sleep or

4254
02:21:06,389 --> 02:21:05,200
whatever maybe therapeutic

4255
02:21:08,469 --> 02:21:06,399
therapy yeah some kind of

4256
02:21:09,830 --> 02:21:08,479
investigational purpose now right when i

4257
02:21:10,950 --> 02:21:09,840
was young it was recreational and that

4258
02:21:14,309 --> 02:21:10,960
was not a good idea

4259
02:21:16,469 --> 02:21:14,319
so the the the um

4260
02:21:18,230 --> 02:21:16,479
what i noticed with that is you know if

4261
02:21:20,790 --> 02:21:18,240
hoffman talks about

4262
02:21:22,230 --> 02:21:20,800
our perceptual interface our his

4263
02:21:24,550 --> 02:21:22,240
interface theory which is

4264
02:21:25,510 --> 02:21:24,560
we have a species specific way of seeing

4265
02:21:27,270 --> 02:21:25,520
the

4266
02:21:29,670 --> 02:21:27,280
social network of consciousness around

4267
02:21:31,670 --> 02:21:29,680
us and it and it's evolved to

4268
02:21:33,670 --> 02:21:31,680
allow us to reproduce it's it's fitness

4269
02:21:36,710 --> 02:21:33,680
payoffs it's not seeing truth

4270
02:21:37,349 --> 02:21:36,720
well what drugs do like thc like lsd

4271
02:21:41,270 --> 02:21:37,359
whatever

4272
02:21:42,710 --> 02:21:41,280
is they take that evolved interface and

4273
02:21:46,070 --> 02:21:42,720
they shift it

4274
02:21:49,190 --> 02:21:46,080
so lsd may really

4275
02:21:49,830 --> 02:21:49,200
just blow it out right it's what you're

4276
02:21:51,990 --> 02:21:49,840
saying that

4277
02:21:53,830 --> 02:21:52,000
what we see on lsd may be partially what

4278
02:21:55,030 --> 02:21:53,840
reality is truly like or distorted

4279
02:21:57,510 --> 02:21:55,040
version

4280
02:21:59,510 --> 02:21:57,520
no what we're all what i'm what i would

4281
02:22:01,110 --> 02:21:59,520
argue is hoffman's argument which is

4282
02:22:02,950 --> 02:22:01,120
reality is simply consciousness

4283
02:22:05,349 --> 02:22:02,960
interacting with itself and we

4284
02:22:06,389 --> 02:22:05,359
see it in a constructed way that

4285
02:22:08,950 --> 02:22:06,399
benefits us

4286
02:22:10,389 --> 02:22:08,960
as a species to reproduce so we

4287
02:22:11,750 --> 02:22:10,399
construct it in a way that allows us to

4288
02:22:13,590 --> 02:22:11,760
get food and have mates

4289
02:22:15,429 --> 02:22:13,600
now what what the drugs do is they don't

4290
02:22:16,150 --> 02:22:15,439
you don't you don't see more reality or

4291
02:22:19,190 --> 02:22:16,160
whatever

4292
02:22:21,510 --> 02:22:19,200
what you do is you see that same

4293
02:22:22,790 --> 02:22:21,520
reality the objective reality which is

4294
02:22:26,070 --> 02:22:22,800
this conscious

4295
02:22:28,070 --> 02:22:26,080
agent network happening um

4296
02:22:29,590 --> 02:22:28,080
manifesting but you see it with a

4297
02:22:31,110 --> 02:22:29,600
different interface you might see it

4298
02:22:33,750 --> 02:22:31,120
with an interface that

4299
02:22:34,710 --> 02:22:33,760
would be evolutionarily advantageous if

4300
02:22:37,110 --> 02:22:34,720
x y and z

4301
02:22:38,469 --> 02:22:37,120
so what i find with thc this is what i

4302
02:22:39,910 --> 02:22:38,479
think is fascinating

4303
02:22:41,590 --> 02:22:39,920
you you'll talk to those people right

4304
02:22:43,110 --> 02:22:41,600
who are and there's a lot of variation

4305
02:22:46,550 --> 02:22:43,120
in our own interfaces people with

4306
02:22:49,910 --> 02:22:46,560
synesthesia who you know hear sounds or

4307
02:22:51,429 --> 02:22:49,920
see uh sounds things like that or

4308
02:22:53,670 --> 02:22:51,439
hoffman gives the example of the

4309
02:22:56,469 --> 02:22:53,680
chef who whenever he tastes mint he

4310
02:22:59,349 --> 02:22:56,479
feels in his hand a cool column of glass

4311
02:23:00,630 --> 02:22:59,359
um those are mutations in our interface

4312
02:23:02,070 --> 02:23:00,640
they're changes in our interface that at

4313
02:23:03,349 --> 02:23:02,080
some point may become evolutionary

4314
02:23:05,510 --> 02:23:03,359
advantageous

4315
02:23:06,950 --> 02:23:05,520
and we select for them so what what what

4316
02:23:08,469 --> 02:23:06,960
i think is

4317
02:23:10,469 --> 02:23:08,479
with thc there are those people who are

4318
02:23:12,230 --> 02:23:10,479
like bro i just i'm so anxious at

4319
02:23:13,910 --> 02:23:12,240
baseline i can't sleep at baseline i'm

4320
02:23:16,230 --> 02:23:13,920
a total [\h__\h] like joe rogan will say

4321
02:23:17,590 --> 02:23:16,240
this i'm a complete [\h__\h] at baseline

4322
02:23:19,349 --> 02:23:17,600
i smoke some weed and i'm just a

4323
02:23:21,349 --> 02:23:19,359
different person i'm better

4324
02:23:22,630 --> 02:23:21,359
i'm calmer i sleep better i could do

4325
02:23:23,750 --> 02:23:22,640
this all day every day and still

4326
02:23:26,150 --> 02:23:23,760
function perfectly

4327
02:23:27,349 --> 02:23:26,160
what i suspect with them is their

4328
02:23:29,670 --> 02:23:27,359
baseline interface

4329
02:23:30,550 --> 02:23:29,680
is slightly shifted towards the more

4330
02:23:32,870 --> 02:23:30,560
paranoid

4331
02:23:33,670 --> 02:23:32,880
a little more sensitive a little more

4332
02:23:35,429 --> 02:23:33,680
anxious

4333
02:23:37,429 --> 02:23:35,439
a little more insomnia a little more

4334
02:23:38,950 --> 02:23:37,439
thoughts racing you give them thc it

4335
02:23:39,349 --> 02:23:38,960
shifts it back to what you and i would

4336
02:23:42,150 --> 02:23:39,359
call

4337
02:23:43,110 --> 02:23:42,160
normal or or whoever whoever's in that

4338
02:23:45,110 --> 02:23:43,120
normal state

4339
02:23:46,389 --> 02:23:45,120
for me as someone who's you know a

4340
02:23:48,790 --> 02:23:46,399
little anxious whatever what

4341
02:23:51,349 --> 02:23:48,800
what that shift does is it makes me more

4342
02:23:53,590 --> 02:23:51,359
paranoid more sensitive

4343
02:23:55,110 --> 02:23:53,600
more enjoyable of sensory stimulus so

4344
02:23:58,389 --> 02:23:55,120
food touch

4345
02:24:01,190 --> 02:23:58,399
sound is unbelievable

4346
02:24:03,590 --> 02:24:01,200
but with that comes a sensitivity to

4347
02:24:05,670 --> 02:24:03,600
thought and a self-referential

4348
02:24:08,070 --> 02:24:05,680
aspect that makes me very unhappy like i

4349
02:24:11,270 --> 02:24:08,080
see myself from outside is this horrible

4350
02:24:13,910 --> 02:24:11,280
just evil nasty thing and it's crippling

4351
02:24:16,150 --> 02:24:13,920
so so it's a shift in our perception a

4352
02:24:18,630 --> 02:24:16,160
little frame shift and the dose

4353
02:24:20,550 --> 02:24:18,640
tells you how far you shift um and the

4354
02:24:21,750 --> 02:24:20,560
kind tells you what you shift into so if

4355
02:24:23,670 --> 02:24:21,760
it's like lsd or

4356
02:24:25,670 --> 02:24:23,680
interesting thc that's my theory now

4357
02:24:29,510 --> 02:24:25,680
again how do i prove it

4358
02:24:31,429 --> 02:24:29,520
can't yeah yeah

4359
02:24:33,030 --> 02:24:31,439
what have we not touched on was there

4360
02:24:34,469 --> 02:24:33,040
something we're supposed to

4361
02:24:36,070 --> 02:24:34,479
there's a universe of things that we'll

4362
02:24:38,870 --> 02:24:36,080
just have to do a follow-up

4363
02:24:39,429 --> 02:24:38,880
yeah we definitely will i you know we

4364
02:24:40,710 --> 02:24:39,439
were gonna

4365
02:24:42,710 --> 02:24:40,720
medicine and all that that's a whole

4366
02:24:44,630 --> 02:24:42,720
nother conversation we talked about

4367
02:24:46,710 --> 02:24:44,640
a lot of things okay i have one question

4368
02:24:48,150 --> 02:24:46,720
i wrote okay someone said

4369
02:24:49,349 --> 02:24:48,160
i heard him talk on trigonometry

4370
02:24:50,950 --> 02:24:49,359
recently which i don't think is true

4371
02:24:52,630 --> 02:24:50,960
were you on trigonometry

4372
02:24:54,710 --> 02:24:52,640
perhaps they better no actually i wasn't

4373
02:24:57,030 --> 02:24:54,720
i saw that coming yeah i don't think so

4374
02:24:58,309 --> 02:24:57,040
perhaps they meant rebel wisdom okay

4375
02:24:59,030 --> 02:24:58,319
excellent he spoke of the problem of

4376
02:25:01,030 --> 02:24:59,040
changing

4377
02:25:03,349 --> 02:25:01,040
his opinion based on new information it

4378
02:25:05,510 --> 02:25:03,359
is old okay now see

4379
02:25:07,110 --> 02:25:05,520
we talked about grandstanding before i

4380
02:25:08,550 --> 02:25:07,120
think there's rational

4381
02:25:10,469 --> 02:25:08,560
it's almost like virtue signaling this

4382
02:25:11,990 --> 02:25:10,479
rational signaling i don't believe

4383
02:25:13,910 --> 02:25:12,000
people when they say i change my mind

4384
02:25:15,750 --> 02:25:13,920
based on new information

4385
02:25:17,270 --> 02:25:15,760
the reason why is that it's extremely

4386
02:25:19,750 --> 02:25:17,280
hard to change your mind

4387
02:25:21,110 --> 02:25:19,760
it's and not only that but would you

4388
02:25:21,910 --> 02:25:21,120
change your mind based on any new

4389
02:25:23,670 --> 02:25:21,920
information

4390
02:25:25,030 --> 02:25:23,680
are you saying that you have no other

4391
02:25:27,349 --> 02:25:25,040
value system embedded

4392
02:25:29,110 --> 02:25:27,359
so for example if the world told you

4393
02:25:29,590 --> 02:25:29,120
through some truth mechanism that you

4394
02:25:31,910 --> 02:25:29,600
should

4395
02:25:34,389 --> 02:25:31,920
kill your wife or kill your dog are you

4396
02:25:36,070 --> 02:25:34,399
telling me that you're going to override

4397
02:25:38,389 --> 02:25:36,080
your beliefs to follow what's rational

4398
02:25:40,550 --> 02:25:38,399
is rationality the god

4399
02:25:41,910 --> 02:25:40,560
why should you follow that if it leads

4400
02:25:45,670 --> 02:25:41,920
you to destruction

4401
02:25:47,670 --> 02:25:45,680
so i i saw that and i thought about

4402
02:25:49,110 --> 02:25:47,680
i don't believe people and i saw this

4403
02:25:51,590 --> 02:25:49,120
veritasium video once

4404
02:25:52,389 --> 02:25:51,600
not to pick on veritasium but veritasium

4405
02:25:54,469 --> 02:25:52,399
was in a

4406
02:25:55,670 --> 02:25:54,479
university crowd holding the camera to

4407
02:25:57,349 --> 02:25:55,680
himself and someone was saying

4408
02:25:59,030 --> 02:25:57,359
how is it that you change your mind when

4409
02:26:00,870 --> 02:25:59,040
you are presented with new beliefs

4410
02:26:02,309 --> 02:26:00,880
and he's like well you know these

4411
02:26:03,830 --> 02:26:02,319
beliefs you just

4412
02:26:05,190 --> 02:26:03,840
you get new information you update them

4413
02:26:05,670 --> 02:26:05,200
you just slot it in even though you

4414
02:26:07,750 --> 02:26:05,680
don't like

4415
02:26:09,750 --> 02:26:07,760
and i'm like you're so pretentious man

4416
02:26:11,349 --> 02:26:09,760
firstly you don't think like that

4417
02:26:13,830 --> 02:26:11,359
secondly it's not that easy thirdly

4418
02:26:15,990 --> 02:26:13,840
maybe you shouldn't because

4419
02:26:17,830 --> 02:26:16,000
well you don't know where rationality

4420
02:26:20,710 --> 02:26:17,840
alone will lead you rationality

4421
02:26:21,349 --> 02:26:20,720
is a it's like an arrow with no

4422
02:26:25,110 --> 02:26:21,359
direction

4423
02:26:27,030 --> 02:26:25,120
process isn't exactly rational it's like

4424
02:26:28,309 --> 02:26:27,040
pre-rational

4425
02:26:30,309 --> 02:26:28,319
those were my thoughts and i wanted to

4426
02:26:34,070 --> 02:26:30,319
know what you thought about that dude

4427
02:26:36,070 --> 02:26:34,080
so how big of a jonathan height uh

4428
02:26:37,190 --> 02:26:36,080
understanding do you have not much not

4429
02:26:39,750 --> 02:26:37,200
much other than

4430
02:26:41,110 --> 02:26:39,760
big five and political belief that's it

4431
02:26:42,950 --> 02:26:41,120
right right right right right talk about

4432
02:26:44,150 --> 02:26:42,960
the big five um the moral palette you

4433
02:26:46,790 --> 02:26:44,160
know fairness versus

4434
02:26:49,910 --> 02:26:46,800
cheating authority versus subversion etc

4435
02:26:54,070 --> 02:26:51,990
analogy which i think speaks exactly

4436
02:26:56,550 --> 02:26:54,080
what you're saying is this

4437
02:26:57,830 --> 02:26:56,560
so and i keep this here because i i i

4438
02:26:59,750 --> 02:26:57,840
want to be reminded of it

4439
02:27:02,230 --> 02:26:59,760
the elephant and the writer i'm

4440
02:27:03,590 --> 02:27:02,240
surprised not a monkey on the elephant

4441
02:27:04,950 --> 02:27:03,600
right that would be better it's just

4442
02:27:06,710 --> 02:27:04,960
someone one of my supporters sent me

4443
02:27:10,469 --> 02:27:06,720
this and so i use it as an example

4444
02:27:13,030 --> 02:27:10,479
so thank you uh patricia i think

4445
02:27:14,710 --> 02:27:13,040
sent me this so the elephant is our

4446
02:27:16,550 --> 02:27:14,720
primitive emotional

4447
02:27:17,990 --> 02:27:16,560
mind what daniel kahneman would call

4448
02:27:21,030 --> 02:27:18,000
system one

4449
02:27:24,630 --> 02:27:21,040
so it's it works on heuristics emotion

4450
02:27:27,190 --> 02:27:24,640
feeling intuition instant fast yes

4451
02:27:27,830 --> 02:27:27,200
it's the fast system exactly so it

4452
02:27:29,830 --> 02:27:27,840
happens

4453
02:27:31,510 --> 02:27:29,840
it's we share it with a lot of animals

4454
02:27:32,630 --> 02:27:31,520
it's it's um highly conservative

4455
02:27:35,349 --> 02:27:32,640
evolutionarily

4456
02:27:36,469 --> 02:27:35,359
ancient brain and it works to make these

4457
02:27:39,270 --> 02:27:36,479
snap judgments

4458
02:27:40,630 --> 02:27:39,280
it it holds our deepest sort of biases

4459
02:27:43,510 --> 02:27:40,640
and beliefs it's partially

4460
02:27:44,630 --> 02:27:43,520
genetic it's partially conditioned but

4461
02:27:46,950 --> 02:27:44,640
it is what it is

4462
02:27:48,630 --> 02:27:46,960
and it's the thing when i say oh we made

4463
02:27:49,910 --> 02:27:48,640
a decision you know six seconds before

4464
02:27:51,510 --> 02:27:49,920
we're aware of it

4465
02:27:53,190 --> 02:27:51,520
often that's our elephant just making

4466
02:27:53,910 --> 02:27:53,200
that decision unconsciously and feeding

4467
02:27:57,030 --> 02:27:53,920
it up

4468
02:28:00,150 --> 02:27:57,040
to this guy who is the writer

4469
02:28:03,750 --> 02:28:00,160
of the elephant that's our neocortex so

4470
02:28:06,389 --> 02:28:03,760
rational thought math moral reasoning

4471
02:28:07,510 --> 02:28:06,399
persuasion verbally uh those kind of

4472
02:28:11,349 --> 02:28:07,520
things

4473
02:28:15,110 --> 02:28:11,359
the the writer seems to be something

4474
02:28:16,590 --> 02:28:15,120
reasonably unique to higher mammals um

4475
02:28:18,150 --> 02:28:16,600
in that you know and probably

4476
02:28:19,910 --> 02:28:18,160
self-referential thought

4477
02:28:21,670 --> 02:28:19,920
occurs in that it's slower it's more

4478
02:28:24,630 --> 02:28:21,680
deliberate it takes more atp

4479
02:28:25,429 --> 02:28:24,640
to to make it happen and the theory was

4480
02:28:27,429 --> 02:28:25,439
oh we

4481
02:28:29,190 --> 02:28:27,439
we evolved the writer to control the

4482
02:28:32,389 --> 02:28:29,200
elephant so that

4483
02:28:34,950 --> 02:28:32,399
you know we are our rational thought

4484
02:28:35,910 --> 02:28:34,960
overrides emotion but look at the size

4485
02:28:37,670 --> 02:28:35,920
differential

4486
02:28:39,510 --> 02:28:37,680
like who's really in charge so height

4487
02:28:39,990 --> 02:28:39,520
argues that the data actually shows that

4488
02:28:43,830 --> 02:28:40,000
he's

4489
02:28:45,670 --> 02:28:43,840
reviewed that the l th the writer

4490
02:28:47,110 --> 02:28:45,680
is not the president in this little

4491
02:28:50,389 --> 02:28:47,120
consortium it's

4492
02:28:53,670 --> 02:28:50,399
the elephant's press secretary hmm

4493
02:28:54,870 --> 02:28:53,680
have you heard me go chris master in

4494
02:28:55,910 --> 02:28:54,880
a little bit and i saw that you'd

4495
02:28:57,030 --> 02:28:55,920
interviewed him that was the next thing

4496
02:28:58,870 --> 02:28:57,040
on my list to watch

4497
02:29:00,309 --> 02:28:58,880
so i'm sure he kind of talks about this

4498
02:29:01,830 --> 02:29:00,319
precisely right right

4499
02:29:03,110 --> 02:29:01,840
right same thing all these roads

4500
02:29:04,469 --> 02:29:03,120
converge because i think they're they're

4501
02:29:05,990 --> 02:29:04,479
pointing at some truth

4502
02:29:07,590 --> 02:29:06,000
and the idea is that it's a press

4503
02:29:09,190 --> 02:29:07,600
secretary because the elephant

4504
02:29:09,990 --> 02:29:09,200
emotionally beliefwise has already

4505
02:29:13,030 --> 02:29:10,000
decided

4506
02:29:15,670 --> 02:29:13,040
it then needs this writer to persuade

4507
02:29:16,309 --> 02:29:15,680
others in the tribe that we're right

4508
02:29:18,469 --> 02:29:16,319
because

4509
02:29:21,830 --> 02:29:18,479
our life depends on it hunting rights

4510
02:29:25,190 --> 02:29:21,840
breeding rights food rights in a tribe

4511
02:29:27,030 --> 02:29:25,200
so evolutionarily this writer evolved

4512
02:29:29,190 --> 02:29:27,040
as a persuasive tool well now you

4513
02:29:31,510 --> 02:29:29,200
weaponize that through social media

4514
02:29:32,950 --> 02:29:31,520
where everyone's got their elephant they

4515
02:29:35,750 --> 02:29:32,960
now have a like button

4516
02:29:37,510 --> 02:29:35,760
to say my elephant agrees and a comment

4517
02:29:38,389 --> 02:29:37,520
field to go here's what my writer thinks

4518
02:29:39,990 --> 02:29:38,399
of that

4519
02:29:42,070 --> 02:29:40,000
a dislike button to say or an angry

4520
02:29:43,910 --> 02:29:42,080
button to say my outfit disagrees and a

4521
02:29:46,790 --> 02:29:43,920
comment field to attack

4522
02:29:48,870 --> 02:29:46,800
and none of it goes to how do i change

4523
02:29:51,190 --> 02:29:48,880
my mind in the face of new data

4524
02:29:53,349 --> 02:29:51,200
right so when i say i've changed my mind

4525
02:29:55,750 --> 02:29:53,359
like for masks

4526
02:29:56,950 --> 02:29:55,760
elephant response on mass early on was

4527
02:29:59,190 --> 02:29:56,960
uh i'm a doctor

4528
02:30:01,110 --> 02:29:59,200
this is [\h__\h] like having the public

4529
02:30:02,550 --> 02:30:01,120
wear a diaper on their face is dumb

4530
02:30:04,389 --> 02:30:02,560
it's not going to do anything because

4531
02:30:05,510 --> 02:30:04,399
people don't use it correctly they're

4532
02:30:07,429 --> 02:30:05,520
going to touch their face

4533
02:30:09,030 --> 02:30:07,439
at that time i thought this was also for

4534
02:30:12,230 --> 02:30:09,040
medically transmitted meaning

4535
02:30:14,389 --> 02:30:12,240
a lot on surfaces and been disproven so

4536
02:30:16,150 --> 02:30:14,399
i was telling people in videos listen i

4537
02:30:18,389 --> 02:30:16,160
think wearing a mask outside

4538
02:30:19,670 --> 02:30:18,399
as a public person unless it's an n95 or

4539
02:30:21,110 --> 02:30:19,680
a surgical grade mask

4540
02:30:22,230 --> 02:30:21,120
is a dumb idea and i don't want you

4541
02:30:23,830 --> 02:30:22,240
doing those things because you're going

4542
02:30:24,870 --> 02:30:23,840
to hurt my tribe which is the frontline

4543
02:30:26,710 --> 02:30:24,880
healthcare professionals

4544
02:30:27,910 --> 02:30:26,720
who don't have enough ppe and they're

4545
02:30:30,230 --> 02:30:27,920
seeing this right

4546
02:30:31,030 --> 02:30:30,240
and community spread isn't as high yet

4547
02:30:33,510 --> 02:30:31,040
well

4548
02:30:34,870 --> 02:30:33,520
when when that shifted for me was having

4549
02:30:36,950 --> 02:30:34,880
some guests on the show like monica

4550
02:30:38,469 --> 02:30:36,960
gandhi who said listen

4551
02:30:40,550 --> 02:30:38,479
even off-camera she was telling me

4552
02:30:42,630 --> 02:30:40,560
listen we don't have data that shows

4553
02:30:45,670 --> 02:30:42,640
that mass work that's a problem we don't

4554
02:30:47,910 --> 02:30:45,680
we have certain suggestions that it

4555
02:30:49,990 --> 02:30:47,920
reduces the inoculum of the virus

4556
02:30:51,190 --> 02:30:50,000
so that even a dumb diaper on your face

4557
02:30:51,670 --> 02:30:51,200
is going to reduce the sheer number of

4558
02:30:54,550 --> 02:30:51,680
viral

4559
02:30:55,190 --> 02:30:54,560
particles so you may then turn a icu

4560
02:30:59,910 --> 02:30:55,200
case

4561
02:31:01,590 --> 02:30:59,920
some data to suggest that viral inoculum

4562
02:31:03,349 --> 02:31:01,600
especially in other diseases

4563
02:31:04,950 --> 02:31:03,359
matters for severity of illness and so

4564
02:31:05,510 --> 02:31:04,960
then i said okay this is different now

4565
02:31:07,910 --> 02:31:05,520
so now

4566
02:31:09,670 --> 02:31:07,920
anything on your face might reduce you

4567
02:31:11,510 --> 02:31:09,680
down to an asymptomatic case

4568
02:31:12,950 --> 02:31:11,520
and so then i said listen guys i think

4569
02:31:13,990 --> 02:31:12,960
probably i don't believe in math

4570
02:31:15,670 --> 02:31:14,000
mandates because my

4571
02:31:17,830 --> 02:31:15,680
libertarian elephant is like probably

4572
02:31:19,429 --> 02:31:17,840
not a good idea but

4573
02:31:21,349 --> 02:31:19,439
maybe we should say that this is not a

4574
02:31:22,950 --> 02:31:21,359
bad a bad thing and if it keeps us

4575
02:31:24,550 --> 02:31:22,960
bends the curve so that my colleagues in

4576
02:31:26,070 --> 02:31:24,560
the hospital can survive this and we do

4577
02:31:27,990 --> 02:31:26,080
okay then maybe that's a good thing

4578
02:31:29,910 --> 02:31:28,000
so that was an example of changing even

4579
02:31:31,349 --> 02:31:29,920
publicly what i was saying

4580
02:31:33,110 --> 02:31:31,359
the other thing that i changed and this

4581
02:31:34,870 --> 02:31:33,120
was pure bias in the beginning too

4582
02:31:35,990 --> 02:31:34,880
that i had to recognize i had a bias

4583
02:31:37,190 --> 02:31:36,000
like you said in the beginning towards

4584
02:31:38,870 --> 02:31:37,200
the authorities

4585
02:31:41,429 --> 02:31:38,880
like wait cdc is saying it's not a big

4586
02:31:43,429 --> 02:31:41,439
deal who's not calling this a pandemic

4587
02:31:44,630 --> 02:31:43,439
the chinese government scientists are

4588
02:31:45,990 --> 02:31:44,640
saying okay we like what they're doing

4589
02:31:47,510 --> 02:31:46,000
here they caught this early

4590
02:31:49,349 --> 02:31:47,520
so i did a video where it's like guys

4591
02:31:50,550 --> 02:31:49,359
this is what could happen i don't think

4592
02:31:52,150 --> 02:31:50,560
it is because the chinese have got this

4593
02:31:53,349 --> 02:31:52,160
under control it's the stupidest

4594
02:31:55,270 --> 02:31:53,359
it's still available i don't delete

4595
02:31:56,790 --> 02:31:55,280
videos it's out there in the beginning

4596
02:31:57,429 --> 02:31:56,800
of the family like january i'm like stop

4597
02:31:58,389 --> 02:31:57,439
freaking out

4598
02:31:59,349 --> 02:31:58,399
here's what's happening now this could

4599
02:32:00,550 --> 02:31:59,359
get bad these are the things we need to

4600
02:32:01,270 --> 02:32:00,560
worry about this way and they did a

4601
02:32:03,590 --> 02:32:01,280
great job

4602
02:32:04,870 --> 02:32:03,600
oh my god did that video not age well so

4603
02:32:06,389 --> 02:32:04,880
i leave those comments like

4604
02:32:07,830 --> 02:32:06,399
rip me a new one man i'm an idiot and

4605
02:32:08,550 --> 02:32:07,840
then i have to go back and say here's

4606
02:32:10,870 --> 02:32:08,560
why i change

4607
02:32:13,190 --> 02:32:10,880
now i'm very distrustful of anything

4608
02:32:14,630 --> 02:32:13,200
until i'm convinced by talking to enough

4609
02:32:15,670 --> 02:32:14,640
people that are i'm connected to or

4610
02:32:17,429 --> 02:32:15,680
reading the data that

4611
02:32:19,429 --> 02:32:17,439
that it's something different but it

4612
02:32:20,710 --> 02:32:19,439
still hurts it still hurts our belief

4613
02:32:21,750 --> 02:32:20,720
structure like if it violates like if

4614
02:32:23,670 --> 02:32:21,760
you told me tomorrow

4615
02:32:25,830 --> 02:32:23,680
man this vaccine that i've been talking

4616
02:32:26,950 --> 02:32:25,840
about publicly is harming people making

4617
02:32:28,150 --> 02:32:26,960
them infertile doing all this other

4618
02:32:29,590 --> 02:32:28,160
stuff here now we have data it's

4619
02:32:31,429 --> 02:32:29,600
incontrovertible or as close to

4620
02:32:34,790 --> 02:32:31,439
incontrovertible yes

4621
02:32:37,670 --> 02:32:34,800
i would i would want to die

4622
02:32:39,030 --> 02:32:37,680
like i it would feel so horrible because

4623
02:32:40,710 --> 02:32:39,040
my belief structure is

4624
02:32:42,309 --> 02:32:40,720
no actually i've looked at this data

4625
02:32:44,710 --> 02:32:42,319
i've used all my tools of belief

4626
02:32:45,590 --> 02:32:44,720
and science on it and i'm very convinced

4627
02:32:47,349 --> 02:32:45,600
this is safe

4628
02:32:48,389 --> 02:32:47,359
something crazy has happened okay the

4629
02:32:50,230 --> 02:32:48,399
first thing is to do is got to do a

4630
02:32:51,670 --> 02:32:50,240
video and say i was wrong about this

4631
02:32:53,429 --> 02:32:51,680
and that's going to hurt like it's going

4632
02:32:55,910 --> 02:32:53,439
to be the worst but

4633
02:32:57,110 --> 02:32:55,920
you have to you have to accept that

4634
02:32:58,230 --> 02:32:57,120
level of pain

4635
02:32:59,590 --> 02:32:58,240
and but i think you're right i think

4636
02:33:00,550 --> 02:32:59,600
it's very easy to virtue signal i

4637
02:33:02,870 --> 02:33:00,560
changed my mind

4638
02:33:04,309 --> 02:33:02,880
look at me i'm a better human and really

4639
02:33:05,910 --> 02:33:04,319
not be changing your mind at all

4640
02:33:07,750 --> 02:33:05,920
in fact if anything your fundamental

4641
02:33:10,150 --> 02:33:07,760
belief is i go wherever the popular

4642
02:33:11,510 --> 02:33:10,160
wisdom is or whatever will get me views

4643
02:33:13,590 --> 02:33:11,520
and you haven't changed that belief at

4644
02:33:15,670 --> 02:33:13,600
all so by changing this belief

4645
02:33:17,030 --> 02:33:15,680
you're just going with that flow and

4646
02:33:20,309 --> 02:33:17,040
that's something you have to be very

4647
02:33:22,469 --> 02:33:20,319
aware of it's it's tough it's re it's a

4648
02:33:25,750 --> 02:33:22,479
reason why i'm so

4649
02:33:27,110 --> 02:33:25,760
i'm not a great interviewee despite the

4650
02:33:29,429 --> 02:33:27,120
fact that we've been speaking for

4651
02:33:30,870 --> 02:33:29,439
quite some time because i don't have any

4652
02:33:32,870 --> 02:33:30,880
any staunch to beliefs

4653
02:33:34,950 --> 02:33:32,880
at least not that i'm conscious of as

4654
02:33:38,070 --> 02:33:34,960
soon as i put up a

4655
02:33:38,550 --> 02:33:38,080
proposition i can see its flaws and i

4656
02:33:41,110 --> 02:33:38,560
also

4657
02:33:43,110 --> 02:33:41,120
guide myself or try to by this i think

4658
02:33:45,349 --> 02:33:43,120
it's arthur kane who said

4659
02:33:46,389 --> 02:33:45,359
only the shallowest of mind can believe

4660
02:33:48,550 --> 02:33:46,399
that in

4661
02:33:51,510 --> 02:33:48,560
great controversy one side is mere folly

4662
02:33:54,469 --> 02:33:51,520
so when it comes to

4663
02:33:56,309 --> 02:33:54,479
anti-lockdown or anti-masks if there's a

4664
02:33:57,750 --> 02:33:56,319
large enough amount of people saying it

4665
02:33:59,750 --> 02:33:57,760
i want to hear what is your best

4666
02:34:03,110 --> 02:33:59,760
argument and perhaps you're not art

4667
02:34:05,590 --> 02:34:03,120
perhaps what you're saying

4668
02:34:07,590 --> 02:34:05,600
is false but the meaning behind it is

4669
02:34:13,670 --> 02:34:07,600
correct and you're not articulate enough

4670
02:34:17,349 --> 02:34:16,950
i i find it strange that the i find it

4671
02:34:19,590 --> 02:34:17,359
extra

4672
02:34:21,510 --> 02:34:19,600
covet is such an anomaly man for many

4673
02:34:24,550 --> 02:34:21,520
reasons i find it strange

4674
02:34:26,550 --> 02:34:24,560
that it's the right that's anti-lockdown

4675
02:34:28,630 --> 02:34:26,560
when the left should be about liberties

4676
02:34:31,910 --> 02:34:28,640
and i also find it strange that

4677
02:34:33,510 --> 02:34:31,920
the left is for universally

4678
02:34:35,270 --> 02:34:33,520
pro-abortion and the right is

4679
02:34:37,750 --> 02:34:35,280
anti-abortion when

4680
02:34:39,110 --> 02:34:37,760
the it doesn't seem to map on exactly

4681
02:34:42,550 --> 02:34:39,120
and the reason why is

4682
02:34:43,190 --> 02:34:42,560
think of jainism jainism is about like

4683
02:34:44,710 --> 02:34:43,200
you mentioned

4684
02:34:46,790 --> 02:34:44,720
i don't even want to kill a cockroach i

4685
02:34:48,550 --> 02:34:46,800
bring that outside jainists

4686
02:34:50,710 --> 02:34:48,560
who are we would think of as the most

4687
02:34:53,110 --> 02:34:50,720
hippie like left-leaning people

4688
02:34:54,230 --> 02:34:53,120
are complete anti-abortion because it's

4689
02:34:55,990 --> 02:34:54,240
also life

4690
02:34:57,510 --> 02:34:56,000
and so then it's being is being

4691
02:34:59,590 --> 02:34:57,520
pro-abortion on the left

4692
02:35:00,950 --> 02:34:59,600
or is it that your team somehow decided

4693
02:35:02,469 --> 02:35:00,960
this through some other process and

4694
02:35:04,710 --> 02:35:02,479
you're identifying with the team

4695
02:35:06,469 --> 02:35:04,720
and that's why it's so it's such a

4696
02:35:09,429 --> 02:35:06,479
dangerous game to say i am left

4697
02:35:11,990 --> 02:35:09,439
or i am right what are the odds that the

4698
02:35:14,309 --> 02:35:12,000
35 tenants of the right and and the

4699
02:35:16,550 --> 02:35:14,319
45 of the left or whatever it may be are

4700
02:35:20,230 --> 02:35:16,560
ones that you align with you are you

4701
02:35:21,830 --> 02:35:20,240
it's it's a difficult game just to

4702
02:35:25,030 --> 02:35:21,840
attach yourself to

4703
02:35:26,110 --> 02:35:25,040
a team you man see this

4704
02:35:28,309 --> 02:35:26,120
okay you said you're not a good

4705
02:35:29,670 --> 02:35:28,319
interviewee

4706
02:35:31,990 --> 02:35:29,680
forget it but partially not a good

4707
02:35:33,349 --> 02:35:32,000
interviewer but no no no no so forget

4708
02:35:35,750 --> 02:35:33,359
about that what what my

4709
02:35:36,710 --> 02:35:35,760
my uh producer logan was telling me

4710
02:35:38,309 --> 02:35:36,720
before the show because he watched a

4711
02:35:41,830 --> 02:35:38,319
bunch of your stuff and he's like hey

4712
02:35:44,710 --> 02:35:41,840
don't interview kurt have a conversation

4713
02:35:45,910 --> 02:35:44,720
because he's tremendous he's just

4714
02:35:46,710 --> 02:35:45,920
absolutely tremendous asking these

4715
02:35:48,070 --> 02:35:46,720
questions and it'll

4716
02:35:49,349 --> 02:35:48,080
generate conversation i'm like that was

4717
02:35:49,750 --> 02:35:49,359
my plan because watching your stuff the

4718
02:35:50,870 --> 02:35:49,760
same thing

4719
02:35:53,429 --> 02:35:50,880
because you know what actually being a

4720
02:35:54,790 --> 02:35:53,439
good interviewee is boring as [\h__\h]

4721
02:35:57,349 --> 02:35:54,800
because it means that again you have a

4722
02:35:59,030 --> 02:35:57,359
lot to say but not a lot of questions

4723
02:36:00,230 --> 02:35:59,040
not a lot of openness etc

4724
02:36:02,790 --> 02:36:00,240
sometimes i find i'm a better

4725
02:36:03,910 --> 02:36:02,800
interviewee than an interviewer because

4726
02:36:04,950 --> 02:36:03,920
i've been thinking about this stuff so

4727
02:36:06,070 --> 02:36:04,960
much that i want to just tell you all

4728
02:36:07,670 --> 02:36:06,080
about it and then

4729
02:36:09,590 --> 02:36:07,680
the idea is well where am i open to

4730
02:36:09,990 --> 02:36:09,600
these ideas now diving into something

4731
02:36:11,750 --> 02:36:10,000
you said

4732
02:36:13,750 --> 02:36:11,760
this this is the center piece of what i

4733
02:36:15,750 --> 02:36:13,760
call this alt middle thinking

4734
02:36:17,590 --> 02:36:15,760
in my tribe of people we have a lot of

4735
02:36:18,630 --> 02:36:17,600
conservatives a lot of libertarians a

4736
02:36:20,389 --> 02:36:18,640
lot of liberals

4737
02:36:21,670 --> 02:36:20,399
a couple marxists not a lot of very

4738
02:36:21,990 --> 02:36:21,680
far-right people but people that are

4739
02:36:25,190 --> 02:36:22,000
very

4740
02:36:26,630 --> 02:36:25,200
libertarian and they all we

4741
02:36:28,550 --> 02:36:26,640
we talk about it in terms of jonathan

4742
02:36:30,550 --> 02:36:28,560
heights like moral taste buds

4743
02:36:31,990 --> 02:36:30,560
so when you think about abortion etc by

4744
02:36:33,190 --> 02:36:32,000
the way remind me to tell you if we have

4745
02:36:36,150 --> 02:36:33,200
time about about

4746
02:36:37,670 --> 02:36:36,160
the video i did about abortion that boy

4747
02:36:40,950 --> 02:36:37,680
you can see how that triggers the

4748
02:36:43,349 --> 02:36:40,960
tribal behavior of in group out group

4749
02:36:45,110 --> 02:36:43,359
so long story short you have these taste

4750
02:36:47,670 --> 02:36:45,120
buds liberty versus oppression

4751
02:36:49,670 --> 02:36:47,680
that you value fairness versus cheating

4752
02:36:53,270 --> 02:36:49,680
loyalty versus betrayal

4753
02:36:54,550 --> 02:36:53,280
authority versus subversion care versus

4754
02:36:57,750 --> 02:36:54,560
harm so in other words

4755
02:36:59,670 --> 02:36:57,760
you know care versus self-explanatory

4756
02:37:01,190 --> 02:36:59,680
and the sixth one actually is um because

4757
02:37:05,190 --> 02:37:01,200
there's a little subtlety there

4758
02:37:07,990 --> 02:37:05,200
is sanctity versus degradation

4759
02:37:09,590 --> 02:37:08,000
this is from jonathan jonathan height in

4760
02:37:10,710 --> 02:37:09,600
his book the righteous mind he lays

4761
02:37:12,309 --> 02:37:10,720
these out why people just

4762
02:37:13,910 --> 02:37:12,319
good people disagree on politics and

4763
02:37:15,990 --> 02:37:13,920
religion and

4764
02:37:17,110 --> 02:37:16,000
what's interesting is each of these

4765
02:37:19,110 --> 02:37:17,120
issues

4766
02:37:21,110 --> 02:37:19,120
can be filtered through a moral pal your

4767
02:37:22,950 --> 02:37:21,120
moral palate that you're often born with

4768
02:37:25,670 --> 02:37:22,960
like you have these certain values

4769
02:37:26,790 --> 02:37:25,680
so liberty versus oppression so it turns

4770
02:37:28,870 --> 02:37:26,800
out liberals

4771
02:37:30,950 --> 02:37:28,880
tend to really emphasize they all have

4772
02:37:33,990 --> 02:37:30,960
all six but they emphasize

4773
02:37:37,750 --> 02:37:34,000
too which is fairness versus cheating

4774
02:37:41,110 --> 02:37:37,760
and care versus or you know or you know

4775
02:37:42,389 --> 02:37:41,120
yeah care versus harm so and that makes

4776
02:37:43,030 --> 02:37:42,399
sense because then you go okay they

4777
02:37:44,950 --> 02:37:43,040
don't like

4778
02:37:47,429 --> 02:37:44,960
rich people taking advantage of stuff

4779
02:37:48,710 --> 02:37:47,439
they want to take care of poor people

4780
02:37:51,510 --> 02:37:48,720
they you know these are the values they

4781
02:37:53,030 --> 02:37:51,520
project social justice etc

4782
02:37:54,550 --> 02:37:53,040
conservatives actually have those but

4783
02:37:56,309 --> 02:37:54,560
then they really value

4784
02:37:57,910 --> 02:37:56,319
loyalty versus betrayal look how the

4785
02:37:59,429 --> 02:37:57,920
republicans tend to be quite unified

4786
02:38:00,790 --> 02:37:59,439
even when trump does some crazy stuff

4787
02:38:03,030 --> 02:38:00,800
they're like yeah but he's our guy

4788
02:38:04,630 --> 02:38:03,040
right and then you have uh liberty

4789
02:38:07,190 --> 02:38:04,640
versus oppression well

4790
02:38:07,750 --> 02:38:07,200
yeah so it's a more libertarian value

4791
02:38:10,389 --> 02:38:07,760
and

4792
02:38:10,950 --> 02:38:10,399
sanctity versus degradation it turns out

4793
02:38:13,990 --> 02:38:10,960
liberals

4794
02:38:15,910 --> 02:38:14,000
and conservatives parse this quite

4795
02:38:17,349 --> 02:38:15,920
differently so a conservative will look

4796
02:38:18,309 --> 02:38:17,359
at sanctity versus degradation in terms

4797
02:38:21,110 --> 02:38:18,319
of religion versus

4798
02:38:21,990 --> 02:38:21,120
atheism or in terms of abortion the

4799
02:38:24,389 --> 02:38:22,000
sanctity of life

4800
02:38:25,750 --> 02:38:24,399
versus the despoilment of of that

4801
02:38:27,510 --> 02:38:25,760
through abortion

4802
02:38:29,750 --> 02:38:27,520
the liberal would take that same moral

4803
02:38:32,950 --> 02:38:29,760
palette and go sanctity of

4804
02:38:35,190 --> 02:38:32,960
my body my choice versus

4805
02:38:37,349 --> 02:38:35,200
you know some a state invading that

4806
02:38:38,950 --> 02:38:37,359
sanctity with a vaccine or with

4807
02:38:40,550 --> 02:38:38,960
me not allowing to do what i want with

4808
02:38:43,110 --> 02:38:40,560
my unborn fetus

4809
02:38:44,870 --> 02:38:43,120
so they can all kind of parse issues

4810
02:38:45,190 --> 02:38:44,880
through this now you then weaponize that

4811
02:38:47,830 --> 02:38:45,200
through

4812
02:38:49,510 --> 02:38:47,840
tribal behavior so the left has this

4813
02:38:51,910 --> 02:38:49,520
ideological checklist

4814
02:38:52,790 --> 02:38:51,920
what jordan peterson calls ideological

4815
02:38:55,110 --> 02:38:52,800
possession

4816
02:38:55,990 --> 02:38:55,120
so i just i don't even know how i feel

4817
02:38:58,469 --> 02:38:56,000
about some of these things but

4818
02:38:59,429 --> 02:38:58,479
my tribe votes this way and the right

4819
02:39:00,790 --> 02:38:59,439
has a similar

4820
02:39:01,990 --> 02:39:00,800
kind of set of doctrines so when you ask

4821
02:39:03,110 --> 02:39:02,000
the question i don't understand why the

4822
02:39:04,790 --> 02:39:03,120
right does this and then

4823
02:39:06,710 --> 02:39:04,800
some of that is ideological possession

4824
02:39:07,750 --> 02:39:06,720
some of that is they do tend to value

4825
02:39:09,670 --> 02:39:07,760
these

4826
02:39:10,950 --> 02:39:09,680
there's something in veteran something

4827
02:39:13,030 --> 02:39:10,960
yeah exactly

4828
02:39:14,550 --> 02:39:13,040
and then there was a oh so the abortion

4829
02:39:15,750 --> 02:39:14,560
piece that i did so i did

4830
02:39:17,270 --> 02:39:15,760
like one of those direct-to-camera

4831
02:39:18,389 --> 02:39:17,280
things it was when alabama's state

4832
02:39:20,150 --> 02:39:18,399
legislature was

4833
02:39:22,389 --> 02:39:20,160
you know intervening in abortion in some

4834
02:39:25,030 --> 02:39:22,399
way that a lot of physicians were saying

4835
02:39:27,670 --> 02:39:25,040
you know this is a bunch of

4836
02:39:29,429 --> 02:39:27,680
men can't legislate medicine this is a

4837
02:39:32,230 --> 02:39:29,439
medical procedure let doctors

4838
02:39:32,790 --> 02:39:32,240
do this do this um decision making with

4839
02:39:34,550 --> 02:39:32,800
with

4840
02:39:35,910 --> 02:39:34,560
patients so i did a video where i said

4841
02:39:37,110 --> 02:39:35,920
hey i agree with that like this is a

4842
02:39:39,510 --> 02:39:37,120
medical procedure this is

4843
02:39:40,230 --> 02:39:39,520
how it's done uh it should be the right

4844
02:39:41,990 --> 02:39:40,240
of of

4845
02:39:43,830 --> 02:39:42,000
uh women to make the choice with their

4846
02:39:45,270 --> 02:39:43,840
doctor and with whatever religious

4847
02:39:46,550 --> 02:39:45,280
belief they have etc it shouldn't be a

4848
02:39:48,070 --> 02:39:46,560
legislator doing this

4849
02:39:49,910 --> 02:39:48,080
in my opinion and this is the thing but

4850
02:39:51,110 --> 02:39:49,920
let me tell you a story about why i

4851
02:39:52,870 --> 02:39:51,120
understand

4852
02:39:54,469 --> 02:39:52,880
why people would be very opposed to

4853
02:39:55,990 --> 02:39:54,479
abortion on a deep moral level

4854
02:39:57,590 --> 02:39:56,000
when i was a fourth year medical student

4855
02:39:59,590 --> 02:39:57,600
or third year medical student i was

4856
02:40:01,910 --> 02:39:59,600
compelled to witness

4857
02:40:03,830 --> 02:40:01,920
second late second trimester abortions

4858
02:40:06,630 --> 02:40:03,840
at san francisco general hospital

4859
02:40:08,309 --> 02:40:06,640
and what i saw was you know fetus parts

4860
02:40:10,150 --> 02:40:08,319
being removed and this and that and i

4861
02:40:11,830 --> 02:40:10,160
i gave this very emotional story about

4862
02:40:13,429 --> 02:40:11,840
what it was like so

4863
02:40:15,510 --> 02:40:13,439
did that feel like murder to me at the

4864
02:40:17,030 --> 02:40:15,520
time absolutely could i understand why

4865
02:40:19,110 --> 02:40:17,040
people would feel this is a sanctity

4866
02:40:21,110 --> 02:40:19,120
versus degradation kind of violation

4867
02:40:22,469 --> 02:40:21,120
absolutely until we understand that

4868
02:40:23,510 --> 02:40:22,479
you're never going to have a dialogue

4869
02:40:23,830 --> 02:40:23,520
because you're going to think someone

4870
02:40:26,309 --> 02:40:23,840
else

4871
02:40:28,070 --> 02:40:26,319
is trying to oppress you it's a power

4872
02:40:29,990 --> 02:40:28,080
dynamic instead of a moral

4873
02:40:31,670 --> 02:40:30,000
dynamic we have different intermoral

4874
02:40:32,230 --> 02:40:31,680
intuitions about this let's talk about

4875
02:40:34,469 --> 02:40:32,240
it

4876
02:40:36,230 --> 02:40:34,479
and so i got a ton of messages from

4877
02:40:37,910 --> 02:40:36,240
people saying that's the most

4878
02:40:40,710 --> 02:40:37,920
cogent i've ever heard that's how i feel

4879
02:40:44,150 --> 02:40:40,720
as a doctor who performs abortions like

4880
02:40:47,190 --> 02:40:44,160
this and but then i got hate

4881
02:40:48,790 --> 02:40:47,200
from the a lot of abortion doctors and a

4882
02:40:50,870 --> 02:40:48,800
lot of very lefty lefters

4883
02:40:52,870 --> 02:40:50,880
who are like you're you're basically

4884
02:40:55,269 --> 02:40:52,880
normalizing violence against

4885
02:40:57,030 --> 02:40:55,279
abortion clinics by saying that by

4886
02:41:00,230 --> 02:40:57,040
giving anything

4887
02:41:02,230 --> 02:41:00,240
right right i know and i was like i

4888
02:41:03,349 --> 02:41:02,240
is i felt attract like attacked by this

4889
02:41:04,469 --> 02:41:03,359
tribe of healthcare professionals i was

4890
02:41:06,070 --> 02:41:04,479
like oh my god

4891
02:41:07,510 --> 02:41:06,080
but i i didn't remove it in fact i did

4892
02:41:08,469 --> 02:41:07,520
another video where i talked about it

4893
02:41:12,550 --> 02:41:08,479
more but

4894
02:41:14,950 --> 02:41:12,560
man it's rough right they want

4895
02:41:16,070 --> 02:41:14,960
they dislike the other side so intensely

4896
02:41:18,230 --> 02:41:16,080
that with your

4897
02:41:19,269 --> 02:41:18,240
nuance there's a part of your argument

4898
02:41:20,630 --> 02:41:19,279
that can be used

4899
02:41:22,309 --> 02:41:20,640
on the side that they dislike and so

4900
02:41:23,429 --> 02:41:22,319
they want to discount the argument

4901
02:41:26,150 --> 02:41:23,439
entirely

4902
02:41:26,630 --> 02:41:26,160
yeah yeah false equivalence again fears

4903
02:41:29,910 --> 02:41:26,640
its

4904
02:41:31,030 --> 02:41:29,920
ugly head man kurt are you pooped or

4905
02:41:33,110 --> 02:41:31,040
what bro

4906
02:41:34,070 --> 02:41:33,120
i'm looking forward to being that and

4907
02:41:36,389 --> 02:41:34,080
going to sleep

4908
02:41:37,269 --> 02:41:36,399
at some point and eating so let's wrap

4909
02:41:39,910 --> 02:41:37,279
it up

4910
02:41:41,190 --> 02:41:39,920
yeah yeah thank you so much man dude

4911
02:41:43,349 --> 02:41:41,200
this was uh

4912
02:41:44,870 --> 02:41:43,359
this was a real joy yeah yeah me too me

4913
02:41:46,230 --> 02:41:44,880
too i wasn't expecting to go on for more

4914
02:41:48,210 --> 02:41:46,240
than an hour and it's been two and

4915
02:41:50,790 --> 02:41:48,220
almost almost three

4916
02:41:52,790 --> 02:41:50,800
[Laughter]

4917
02:41:53,830 --> 02:41:52,800
i'm so sorry i know you're starving and

4918
02:41:57,030 --> 02:41:53,840
you're tired

4919
02:41:58,790 --> 02:41:57,040
please i want to hear please

4920
02:42:00,630 --> 02:41:58,800
tell your wife uh i'm deeply sorry and

4921
02:42:03,190 --> 02:42:00,640
that my wife hates me just as much

4922
02:42:04,070 --> 02:42:03,200
uh because i do the same thing um so at

4923
02:42:06,950 --> 02:42:04,080
least we have that

4924
02:42:07,510 --> 02:42:06,960
that kind of true equivalency so facing

4925
02:42:10,830 --> 02:42:07,520
what

4926
02:42:13,590 --> 02:42:10,840
that's going on overextended yeah yeah

4927
02:42:14,550 --> 02:42:13,600
okay uh come home you know we have plans

4928
02:42:16,309 --> 02:42:14,560
and i'm like but just

4929
02:42:19,830 --> 02:42:16,319
a couple more minutes i'm doing a show

4930
02:42:22,469 --> 02:42:19,840
or whatever it is so it is what it is

4931
02:42:23,670 --> 02:42:22,479
brother it's it's just a joy um

4932
02:42:25,190 --> 02:42:23,680
hopefully we can do this again at some

4933
02:42:27,429 --> 02:42:25,200
point in the future if you feel inclined

4934
02:42:28,550 --> 02:42:27,439
uh just let me know and and we'll make

4935
02:42:30,230 --> 02:42:28,560
it happen

4936
02:42:32,550 --> 02:42:30,240
we've never done a live format like this

4937
02:42:35,990 --> 02:42:32,560
oh great i'm i'm honored to be

4938
02:42:37,190 --> 02:42:36,000
the first oh man it's it's

4939
02:42:38,790 --> 02:42:37,200
really awesome to have you you're the

4940
02:42:39,990 --> 02:42:38,800
perfect guest for this not a guest it's

4941
02:42:42,150 --> 02:42:40,000
a conversation um

4942
02:42:43,830 --> 02:42:42,160
so thank you thank you and i and uh

4943
02:42:44,790 --> 02:42:43,840
we'll connect very soon um and to

4944
02:42:47,190 --> 02:42:44,800
everybody who's watching

4945
02:42:48,389 --> 02:42:47,200
uh thanks again to kurt check out his

4946
02:42:50,870 --> 02:42:48,399
stuff so

4947
02:42:52,790 --> 02:42:50,880
his uh podcast his show on youtube is

4948
02:42:53,670 --> 02:42:52,800
called theories of everything i've put

4949
02:42:55,670 --> 02:42:53,680
links in

4950
02:42:57,030 --> 02:42:55,680
his documentary is called better left

4951
02:42:59,349 --> 02:42:57,040
unsaid and

4952
02:43:01,349 --> 02:42:59,359
it's a ride it is a right is the

4953
02:43:04,070 --> 02:43:01,359
director's cut available publicly

4954
02:43:04,389 --> 02:43:04,080
on betterleftonsetfilm.com exclusively

4955
02:43:06,950 --> 02:43:04,399
so

4956
02:43:08,070 --> 02:43:06,960
if you get it from itunes or google or

4957
02:43:10,389 --> 02:43:08,080
voodoo

4958
02:43:12,309 --> 02:43:10,399
firstly much of the money or some of the

4959
02:43:14,389 --> 02:43:12,319
money goes toward them whereas

4960
02:43:15,830 --> 02:43:14,399
from the website most if not all the

4961
02:43:17,030 --> 02:43:15,840
money go toward the filmmakers there's

4962
02:43:20,150 --> 02:43:17,040
some split between

4963
02:43:21,510 --> 02:43:20,160
different places but also on the website

4964
02:43:21,990 --> 02:43:21,520
get access to the director's code i

4965
02:43:25,190 --> 02:43:22,000
believe for

4966
02:43:26,309 --> 02:43:25,200
free if you just buy the regular version

4967
02:43:28,469 --> 02:43:26,319
and you don't get access to the

4968
02:43:29,830 --> 02:43:28,479
directors club find my email it's online

4969
02:43:30,389 --> 02:43:29,840
somewhere and email me and i'll send you

4970
02:43:32,150 --> 02:43:30,399
the link

4971
02:43:33,510 --> 02:43:32,160
just send me that's awesome and you

4972
02:43:34,790 --> 02:43:33,520
funded this thing with kickstarter

4973
02:43:36,790 --> 02:43:34,800
indiegogo stuff type

4974
02:43:39,190 --> 02:43:36,800
that's your thing yeah that's great and

4975
02:43:40,870 --> 02:43:39,200
it's personal money

4976
02:43:42,389 --> 02:43:40,880
it's really well done you guys so if you

4977
02:43:44,389 --> 02:43:42,399
want to dive into like

4978
02:43:46,550 --> 02:43:44,399
the craziness that's going on in society

4979
02:43:49,750 --> 02:43:46,560
in a way that's so unique

4980
02:43:51,269 --> 02:43:49,760
uh watch the director's cut really

4981
02:43:53,190 --> 02:43:51,279
watch the director's cut if you're into

4982
02:43:53,429 --> 02:43:53,200
this because it is it goes really deep

4983
02:43:56,790 --> 02:43:53,439
it's

4984
02:43:58,070 --> 02:43:56,800
and until

4985
02:44:00,150 --> 02:43:58,080
next time i'm going to figure out how to

4986
02:44:02,469 --> 02:44:00,160
stop this kurt you can sign off you are

4987
02:44:03,990 --> 02:44:02,479
the bomb i also wanted to make a quick

4988
02:44:05,110 --> 02:44:04,000
amendment it's when i said personal

4989
02:44:06,630 --> 02:44:05,120
money my brother invested

4990
02:44:08,230 --> 02:44:06,640
heavily into the film so i just want to

4991
02:44:09,190 --> 02:44:08,240
make sure that that said i don't want to

4992
02:44:12,230 --> 02:44:09,200
misrepresent

4993
02:44:12,870 --> 02:44:12,240
so thank you family family and you are

4994
02:44:14,309 --> 02:44:12,880
identical

4995
02:44:15,510 --> 02:44:14,319
as far as i'm concerned that's how i see

4996
02:44:16,870 --> 02:44:15,520
it so yeah thanks for making the

4997
02:44:18,630 --> 02:44:16,880
clarification but that's awesome

4998
02:44:20,870 --> 02:44:18,640
it's really wonderful to have support

4999
02:44:24,469 --> 02:44:20,880
right there's a deep gratitude that

5000
02:44:24,950 --> 02:44:24,479
arises from that um like my supporters

5001
02:44:26,150 --> 02:44:24,960
on

5002
02:44:28,389 --> 02:44:26,160
facebook and stuff that pay for all this

5003
02:44:30,150 --> 02:44:28,399
equipment on youtube

5004
02:44:31,670 --> 02:44:30,160
they're the best they got some great

5005
02:44:33,590 --> 02:44:31,680
equipment okay man

5006
02:44:35,030 --> 02:44:33,600
i gotta get going thank you i'll sign

5007
02:44:35,830 --> 02:44:35,040
off and you can speak to the audience if

5008
02:44:38,790 --> 02:44:35,840
you like

5009
02:44:40,309 --> 02:44:38,800
i'll wrap it up kurt thank you um guys

5010
02:44:41,670 --> 02:44:40,319
for the recording is it all right if i

5011
02:44:44,150 --> 02:44:41,680
just talk to you quickly about that

5012
02:44:46,309 --> 02:44:44,160
you'll send me it to dropbox i will send

5013
02:44:48,150 --> 02:44:46,319
you a dropbox version of this very long

5014
02:44:50,150 --> 02:44:48,160
file that we'll export over the next

5015
02:44:51,349 --> 02:44:50,160
two hours and then i'll send you a link

5016
02:44:51,910 --> 02:44:51,359
and then you can put it together however

5017
02:44:54,630 --> 02:44:51,920
you like

5018
02:44:55,590 --> 02:44:54,640
great thank you i love it brother thanks

5019
02:44:57,190 --> 02:44:55,600
have a great one man

5020
02:44:59,110 --> 02:44:57,200
it's been a pleasure i appreciate it

5021
02:45:02,389 --> 02:44:59,120
thank you man likewise

5022
02:45:03,910 --> 02:45:02,399
guys that was intense

5023
02:45:06,309 --> 02:45:03,920
how we've been talking for almost three

5024
02:45:09,349 --> 02:45:06,319
hours that's crazy

5025
02:45:11,590 --> 02:45:09,359
um wow so

5026
02:45:12,550 --> 02:45:11,600
you know we started out kind of slow and

5027
02:45:14,630 --> 02:45:12,560
got in the groove

5028
02:45:16,150 --> 02:45:14,640
as uh he's been really sleep deprived

5029
02:45:17,429 --> 02:45:16,160
and doing podcast after podcast

5030
02:45:18,550 --> 02:45:17,439
let's take a few comments right now just

5031
02:45:20,389 --> 02:45:18,560
because i want to wrap up with your

5032
02:45:21,910 --> 02:45:20,399
voice because i think that's important

5033
02:45:23,269 --> 02:45:21,920
and we didn't get enough of that in the

5034
02:45:24,230 --> 02:45:23,279
thing because we were so into our

5035
02:45:25,910 --> 02:45:24,240
ourselves

5036
02:45:28,150 --> 02:45:25,920
thank you ann for your support on

5037
02:45:29,830 --> 02:45:28,160
youtube and andrew dunbar

5038
02:45:31,830 --> 02:45:29,840
um actually andrew dunbar says the

5039
02:45:33,110 --> 02:45:31,840
sanctity versus degradation dichotomy

5040
02:45:34,950 --> 02:45:33,120
also applies to how

5041
02:45:36,790 --> 02:45:34,960
some on the right view gun rights

5042
02:45:38,230 --> 02:45:36,800
totally true

5043
02:45:39,830 --> 02:45:38,240
sanctity versus degradation and gun

5044
02:45:40,870 --> 02:45:39,840
rights liberty versus oppression and gun

5045
02:45:43,510 --> 02:45:40,880
rights

5046
02:45:45,750 --> 02:45:43,520
i you know if you don't understand how

5047
02:45:48,150 --> 02:45:45,760
someone who holds opposing views

5048
02:45:49,110 --> 02:45:48,160
sees the world morally you don't

5049
02:45:51,190 --> 02:45:49,120
understand

5050
02:45:52,230 --> 02:45:51,200
them at all and you're going to vilify

5051
02:45:54,230 --> 02:45:52,240
them because you're going to see them

5052
02:45:55,670 --> 02:45:54,240
through your own moral matrix

5053
02:45:57,030 --> 02:45:55,680
which is not how they see the world and

5054
02:45:58,150 --> 02:45:57,040
you need to understand that our moral

5055
02:46:00,710 --> 02:45:58,160
matrix

5056
02:46:01,429 --> 02:46:00,720
allows us to do what we perceive is good

5057
02:46:03,910 --> 02:46:01,439
in the world

5058
02:46:04,630 --> 02:46:03,920
we filter it through that so everybody

5059
02:46:07,030 --> 02:46:04,640
most people

5060
02:46:08,469 --> 02:46:07,040
are trying to be good which is why you

5061
02:46:09,990 --> 02:46:08,479
can assume good intent

5062
02:46:11,429 --> 02:46:10,000
it used to be i would get very triggered

5063
02:46:12,630 --> 02:46:11,439
by people with different political views

5064
02:46:13,269 --> 02:46:12,640
and i would assume that they were just

5065
02:46:15,830 --> 02:46:13,279
bad

5066
02:46:17,670 --> 02:46:15,840
because i was using my moral matrix my

5067
02:46:20,790 --> 02:46:17,680
moral taste buds as the

5068
02:46:23,269 --> 02:46:20,800
as the litmus test or the filter

5069
02:46:24,389 --> 02:46:23,279
now i get excited to hear opposing views

5070
02:46:26,150 --> 02:46:24,399
because i want to know

5071
02:46:28,309 --> 02:46:26,160
what the moral matrix is it's coming

5072
02:46:29,429 --> 02:46:28,319
from and honor it you go oh god you're

5073
02:46:31,349 --> 02:46:29,439
trying to be good and this is how you

5074
02:46:31,830 --> 02:46:31,359
see being good okay i can't be mad at

5075
02:46:33,750 --> 02:46:31,840
you

5076
02:46:35,670 --> 02:46:33,760
i disagree for these reasons but let's

5077
02:46:37,429 --> 02:46:35,680
have a conversation what do we agree on

5078
02:46:38,950 --> 02:46:37,439
morally what do we agree on we want to

5079
02:46:40,469 --> 02:46:38,960
see in the world right and then you can

5080
02:46:43,030 --> 02:46:40,479
start from a consensus

5081
02:46:44,870 --> 02:46:43,040
sort of common human common humanity

5082
02:46:46,469 --> 02:46:44,880
politics instead of this identity where

5083
02:46:47,510 --> 02:46:46,479
we're all separate fighting each other

5084
02:46:49,910 --> 02:46:47,520
as tribes

5085
02:46:51,190 --> 02:46:49,920
that's really what a lot of identity

5086
02:46:52,230 --> 02:46:51,200
politics that used to be a great thing

5087
02:46:54,070 --> 02:46:52,240
in the civil rights movement has

5088
02:46:56,309 --> 02:46:54,080
devolved into this

5089
02:46:57,990 --> 02:46:56,319
our group existential battle against

5090
02:46:58,469 --> 02:46:58,000
everybody else that's a power struggle

5091
02:47:00,550 --> 02:46:58,479
trying to

5092
02:47:02,710 --> 02:47:00,560
oppress us well what if we just assume

5093
02:47:04,070 --> 02:47:02,720
good intent and try our best instead of

5094
02:47:06,389 --> 02:47:04,080
vilifying other people because of the

5095
02:47:08,230 --> 02:47:06,399
way they're born right

5096
02:47:09,910 --> 02:47:08,240
born white or born asian or born

5097
02:47:11,110 --> 02:47:09,920
whatever like forget that dude that

5098
02:47:13,830 --> 02:47:11,120
that's horseshit that's

5099
02:47:15,750 --> 02:47:13,840
that's the definition of discrimination

5100
02:47:17,590 --> 02:47:15,760
um

5101
02:47:19,510 --> 02:47:17,600
june black says i felt so bad for him

5102
02:47:22,790 --> 02:47:19,520
being so tired at the beginning

5103
02:47:24,309 --> 02:47:22,800
glad he came around yeah dude i i really

5104
02:47:25,830 --> 02:47:24,319
hang on a second i just

5105
02:47:28,630 --> 02:47:25,840
ah there we go i'm still recording

5106
02:47:31,269 --> 02:47:28,640
that's good um

5107
02:47:32,230 --> 02:47:31,279
i felt really bad for him and i felt

5108
02:47:33,510 --> 02:47:32,240
like

5109
02:47:35,670 --> 02:47:33,520
what you know we were scheduled to do

5110
02:47:37,269 --> 02:47:35,680
this and i was like am i torturing this

5111
02:47:38,309 --> 02:47:37,279
guy because

5112
02:47:39,190 --> 02:47:38,319
you know we didn't even know what we

5113
02:47:41,269 --> 02:47:39,200
were going to talk about we had no

5114
02:47:41,510 --> 02:47:41,279
agenda you know we connected via email

5115
02:47:47,590 --> 02:47:41,520
and

5116
02:47:48,790 --> 02:47:47,600
uh it didn't it went on the rails which

5117
02:47:51,269 --> 02:47:48,800
was off the rails

5118
02:47:52,469 --> 02:47:51,279
so it was a lot of fun for me yeah it

5119
02:47:55,990 --> 02:47:52,479
was intense right janna

5120
02:47:56,550 --> 02:47:56,000
um george shepherd my fulcrum is

5121
02:47:59,349 --> 02:47:56,560
different

5122
02:48:00,389 --> 02:47:59,359
uh from so-and-so's fulcrum that's a

5123
02:48:03,830 --> 02:48:00,399
good way to look at it

5124
02:48:04,469 --> 02:48:03,840
like right where's your fulcrum that's

5125
02:48:05,910 --> 02:48:04,479
great

5126
02:48:07,349 --> 02:48:05,920
ashley stewart i feel the exact same way

5127
02:48:09,110 --> 02:48:07,359
i never learn from people who think

5128
02:48:12,070 --> 02:48:09,120
exactly like i do you can't

5129
02:48:12,630 --> 02:48:12,080
it's just a kind of group thing um jamie

5130
02:48:13,910 --> 02:48:12,640
vance

5131
02:48:15,590 --> 02:48:13,920
how do you break through to people who

5132
02:48:17,590 --> 02:48:15,600
allow their moral compass to dictate a

5133
02:48:19,910 --> 02:48:17,600
conversation i struggle greatly

5134
02:48:21,349 --> 02:48:19,920
with helping people uh see that

5135
02:48:23,990 --> 02:48:21,359
everything is true but partial

5136
02:48:26,230 --> 02:48:24,000
so that idea of alt middle that

5137
02:48:28,550 --> 02:48:26,240
everything's true but partial

5138
02:48:30,630 --> 02:48:28,560
is a kind of moral assertion it's a kind

5139
02:48:34,070 --> 02:48:30,640
of meta belief about belief

5140
02:48:36,870 --> 02:48:34,080
so i think i think

5141
02:48:38,070 --> 02:48:36,880
accepting that person as they are is one

5142
02:48:40,150 --> 02:48:38,080
thing this is how they're showing up

5143
02:48:42,950 --> 02:48:40,160
it's the best they can do at this point

5144
02:48:44,070 --> 02:48:42,960
and then gently this is very hard gently

5145
02:48:47,110 --> 02:48:44,080
nudging

5146
02:48:50,389 --> 02:48:47,120
through conversation some ideas that

5147
02:48:52,150 --> 02:48:50,399
might open them up a little too

5148
02:48:54,150 --> 02:48:52,160
first of all maximizing whatever level

5149
02:48:56,309 --> 02:48:54,160
they're at in terms of their thinking

5150
02:48:58,550 --> 02:48:56,319
and then opening them to whatever that

5151
02:48:59,269 --> 02:48:58,560
adjacent level is and it i see it happen

5152
02:49:02,070 --> 02:48:59,279
again and again

5153
02:49:03,429 --> 02:49:02,080
i see it it's not impossible it's not

5154
02:49:05,030 --> 02:49:03,439
that we change our minds it's that our

5155
02:49:07,750 --> 02:49:05,040
minds grow

5156
02:49:08,389 --> 02:49:07,760
they they transcend and include what

5157
02:49:12,469 --> 02:49:08,399
came

5158
02:49:16,790 --> 02:49:12,479
before to use ken wilbur's language um

5159
02:49:18,309 --> 02:49:16,800
you know it's a beautiful thing um

5160
02:49:20,630 --> 02:49:18,319
oh how kind of you theories of

5161
02:49:21,990 --> 02:49:20,640
everything kurt jeiman gaul commented

5162
02:49:23,750 --> 02:49:22,000
thank you zubin can't hear you but

5163
02:49:24,950 --> 02:49:23,760
typing to say thank you kurt you're the

5164
02:49:27,190 --> 02:49:24,960
best man

5165
02:49:28,309 --> 02:49:27,200
what's kurt's full name kurt jaimungal

5166
02:49:30,070 --> 02:49:28,319
and it's in the description for the

5167
02:49:31,110 --> 02:49:30,080
video dorothy morrison afterwards you

5168
02:49:34,630 --> 02:49:31,120
can see it there

5169
02:49:38,630 --> 02:49:34,640
um j-a-i-m-u-n-g-a-l

5170
02:49:40,309 --> 02:49:38,640
he's a he's awesome really like i love

5171
02:49:43,269 --> 02:49:40,319
people who think like that

5172
02:49:44,950 --> 02:49:43,279
and who are self-reflective and very

5173
02:49:48,710 --> 02:49:44,960
very intellectual but able to

5174
02:49:52,309 --> 02:49:48,720
also relax into a kind of

5175
02:49:54,950 --> 02:49:52,319
beyond intellectualism it's really key

5176
02:49:56,469 --> 02:49:54,960
um sophia says uh on youtube says the

5177
02:49:59,510 --> 02:49:56,479
ego has a lot of power

5178
02:50:00,950 --> 02:49:59,520
always reasserting uh through and into

5179
02:50:02,309 --> 02:50:00,960
survival mechanisms so

5180
02:50:03,750 --> 02:50:02,319
sophie let's think about ego for a

5181
02:50:05,429 --> 02:50:03,760
second i don't know why i'm still

5182
02:50:08,150 --> 02:50:05,439
talking about talking for three hours

5183
02:50:09,190 --> 02:50:08,160
and i gotta be somewhere but i'm into

5184
02:50:11,990 --> 02:50:09,200
this now

5185
02:50:12,950 --> 02:50:12,000
it's a kind of a flow state oh my neck's

5186
02:50:16,710 --> 02:50:12,960
going to hurt tomorrow

5187
02:50:20,630 --> 02:50:19,110
we tend so in spiritual circles in

5188
02:50:21,910 --> 02:50:20,640
particular in meditation circles and

5189
02:50:22,630 --> 02:50:21,920
those kind of circles that look at this

5190
02:50:24,710 --> 02:50:22,640
stuff

5191
02:50:26,150 --> 02:50:24,720
the ego tends to be objectified as

5192
02:50:27,269 --> 02:50:26,160
something that's there it's like this

5193
02:50:29,590 --> 02:50:27,279
entity that

5194
02:50:31,190 --> 02:50:29,600
we need to fight or we need to overcome

5195
02:50:32,710 --> 02:50:31,200
or that's doing these bad things to us

5196
02:50:34,950 --> 02:50:32,720
or so on

5197
02:50:35,830 --> 02:50:34,960
and i think when you approach it from

5198
02:50:36,790 --> 02:50:35,840
that angle

5199
02:50:39,110 --> 02:50:36,800
i'm not saying you're doing this i'm

5200
02:50:39,750 --> 02:50:39,120
just saying i'm speaking just expositing

5201
02:50:41,670 --> 02:50:39,760
on this

5202
02:50:43,269 --> 02:50:41,680
when we approach ego from that angle we

5203
02:50:45,349 --> 02:50:43,279
turn it into an object what's

5204
02:50:47,030 --> 02:50:45,359
the only thing that can turn other

5205
02:50:51,190 --> 02:50:47,040
things into objects

5206
02:50:53,590 --> 02:50:51,200
ego so my friend angelo says when you go

5207
02:50:58,790 --> 02:50:53,600
to war with the ego

5208
02:51:05,750 --> 02:51:01,830
it it's a very subtle it's a

5209
02:51:08,870 --> 02:51:05,760
pattern of conditioned thoughts beliefs

5210
02:51:10,389 --> 02:51:08,880
and perceptual distortions

5211
02:51:12,710 --> 02:51:10,399
that are just happening just like

5212
02:51:14,309 --> 02:51:12,720
everything else is just happening

5213
02:51:15,830 --> 02:51:14,319
it's just happening and what happens is

5214
02:51:19,269 --> 02:51:15,840
it binds attention

5215
02:51:21,429 --> 02:51:19,279
so that we think this is it and the ego

5216
02:51:23,110 --> 02:51:21,439
knows us better than we know ourselves

5217
02:51:24,070 --> 02:51:23,120
it's had millions of years to evolve

5218
02:51:26,070 --> 02:51:24,080
with us

5219
02:51:27,910 --> 02:51:26,080
it knows our deepest darkest thoughts

5220
02:51:29,590 --> 02:51:27,920
and knows how to manipulate us now

5221
02:51:31,190 --> 02:51:29,600
again i'm objectifying it but let's just

5222
02:51:33,510 --> 02:51:31,200
say that pattern of energy

5223
02:51:35,349 --> 02:51:33,520
is really good at tricking attention

5224
02:51:38,070 --> 02:51:35,359
into following thoughts about

5225
02:51:38,469 --> 02:51:38,080
self and so on creating the sense of

5226
02:51:40,710 --> 02:51:38,479
self

5227
02:51:43,190 --> 02:51:40,720
this person behind my eyes that's seeing

5228
02:51:45,030 --> 02:51:43,200
objects around me as separate

5229
02:51:46,309 --> 02:51:45,040
instead of just everything as one thing

5230
02:51:49,510 --> 02:51:46,319
one as

5231
02:51:52,950 --> 02:51:49,520
as um kirk called it one vellum

5232
02:51:56,389 --> 02:51:52,960
one substrata one thing

5233
02:51:57,910 --> 02:51:56,399
one reality and the oh by the way jody

5234
02:51:58,469 --> 02:51:57,920
jacobs on facebook says i stayed the

5235
02:52:00,070 --> 02:51:58,479
full

5236
02:52:02,309 --> 02:52:00,080
three hours because i love this

5237
02:52:06,070 --> 02:52:02,319
conversation thank you both

5238
02:52:08,950 --> 02:52:06,080
jody that makes me so oh

5239
02:52:10,790 --> 02:52:08,960
i just love that i love that that really

5240
02:52:13,190 --> 02:52:10,800
warms me up my ego

5241
02:52:15,110 --> 02:52:13,200
but even beyond ego there's something

5242
02:52:17,830 --> 02:52:15,120
like

5243
02:52:18,550 --> 02:52:17,840
there's something in our authentic bits

5244
02:52:20,790 --> 02:52:18,560
right

5245
02:52:21,590 --> 02:52:20,800
that when you connect with another

5246
02:52:22,630 --> 02:52:21,600
person

5247
02:52:24,309 --> 02:52:22,640
like we connected during this

5248
02:52:24,950 --> 02:52:24,319
conversation you and i and kurt and all

5249
02:52:27,190 --> 02:52:24,960
that

5250
02:52:28,630 --> 02:52:27,200
it's just this sense of just elevation

5251
02:52:31,030 --> 02:52:28,640
like oh

5252
02:52:32,230 --> 02:52:31,040
that's beautiful that's humanity at its

5253
02:52:37,110 --> 02:52:32,240
most connected right

5254
02:52:40,230 --> 02:52:38,790
yeah jose check out his movie so his

5255
02:52:41,750 --> 02:52:40,240
movie's crazy it's like real

5256
02:52:43,190 --> 02:52:41,760
experimental and weird and

5257
02:52:44,550 --> 02:52:43,200
it doesn't seem like it's all going to

5258
02:52:45,030 --> 02:52:44,560
come together and then at the end it's

5259
02:52:47,349 --> 02:52:45,040
kind of like

5260
02:52:48,630 --> 02:52:47,359
what so you got you got to check it out

5261
02:52:50,870 --> 02:52:48,640
it's some crazy [\h__\h]

5262
02:52:52,230 --> 02:52:50,880
um all right now i probably i probably

5263
02:52:53,830 --> 02:52:52,240
should go because i can hear this

5264
02:52:59,830 --> 02:52:53,840
box trying to record and it's probably

5265
02:53:03,190 --> 02:53:01,349
yeah it's crazy it's still actually

5266
02:53:04,309 --> 02:53:03,200
recording i don't know i didn't know it

5267
02:53:08,309 --> 02:53:04,319
had that much space

5268
02:53:11,750 --> 02:53:08,319
on that card um cogito ergo

5269
02:53:13,750 --> 02:53:11,760
ego that's right george shepherd i think

5270
02:53:16,230 --> 02:53:13,760
therefore i am ego

5271
02:53:17,429 --> 02:53:16,240
ego itself is a friend it can be a it's

5272
02:53:19,110 --> 02:53:17,439
a it's a

5273
02:53:21,670 --> 02:53:19,120
it's a pattern of energy that's kept us

5274
02:53:22,070 --> 02:53:21,680
alive that's goal is to protect us from

5275
02:53:31,990 --> 02:53:22,080
a

5276
02:53:34,389 --> 02:53:32,000
thing

5277
02:53:35,750 --> 02:53:34,399
this pattern of energy we should honor

5278
02:53:37,830 --> 02:53:35,760
it we should thank it

5279
02:53:39,510 --> 02:53:37,840
we should be grateful for it but we

5280
02:53:40,710 --> 02:53:39,520
should recognize it for what it is we

5281
02:53:41,670 --> 02:53:40,720
should recognize when it's trying to

5282
02:53:45,269 --> 02:53:41,680
co-opt

5283
02:53:49,030 --> 02:53:47,910
you know the story of the one who woke

5284
02:53:50,870 --> 02:53:49,040
up

5285
02:53:52,630 --> 02:53:50,880
the story of the one who meditates the

5286
02:53:54,950 --> 02:53:52,640
story of the one who's embarking on a

5287
02:54:00,309 --> 02:53:54,960
spiritual journey whatever it is

5288
02:54:03,510 --> 02:54:02,309
june black it was three hours didn't

5289
02:54:04,230 --> 02:54:03,520
seem like it man i can't believe you

5290
02:54:06,710 --> 02:54:04,240
guys are with

5291
02:54:07,510 --> 02:54:06,720
with us this long ashley same thing you

5292
02:54:12,070 --> 02:54:07,520
guys are crazy

5293
02:54:17,590 --> 02:54:15,110
i'm tired um

5294
02:54:18,790 --> 02:54:17,600
samantha man you guys are great i you

5295
02:54:19,670 --> 02:54:18,800
guys are the core audience because there

5296
02:54:21,030 --> 02:54:19,680
was like

5297
02:54:22,469 --> 02:54:21,040
you know about a hundred and some on

5298
02:54:23,349 --> 02:54:22,479
each platform the whole time you guys

5299
02:54:26,309 --> 02:54:23,359
are really the core

5300
02:54:27,110 --> 02:54:26,319
hardcore devotees and i i'm so grateful

5301
02:54:28,710 --> 02:54:27,120
for you

5302
02:54:30,469 --> 02:54:28,720
all right i gotta stop doing this it's

5303
02:54:32,469 --> 02:54:30,479
an affectation but i love it when i went

5304
02:54:34,150 --> 02:54:32,479
to thailand when i was younger

5305
02:54:35,670 --> 02:54:34,160
this was it was a very buddhist society

5306
02:54:37,269 --> 02:54:35,680
and everybody would just do this and i

5307
02:54:40,790 --> 02:54:37,279
got in the habit of that

5308
02:54:42,870 --> 02:54:40,800
and it's a kind of a i see you as me

5309
02:54:43,910 --> 02:54:42,880
and a gratitude thing at the same time

5310
02:54:46,230 --> 02:54:43,920
it's really lovely

5311
02:54:47,349 --> 02:54:46,240
all right i'd rather do it than shake

5312
02:54:50,230 --> 02:54:47,359
hands honestly

5313
02:54:51,510 --> 02:54:50,240
um all right i love you guys now i got

5314
02:54:54,710 --> 02:54:51,520
to figure out how to end this

5315
02:54:56,070 --> 02:54:54,720
i'm going to say bye to youtube first so

5316
02:55:00,150 --> 02:54:56,080
bye bye youtube

5317
02:55:05,510 --> 02:55:04,150
and then i got to figure out

5318
02:55:06,790 --> 02:55:05,520
facebook i think the way i'll do that is